No sense of perspective
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Captain Kirk
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No sense of perspective
Anybody reading any number of previous political posts will be aware I have little love of our leaders but this stuff I'm watching on BBC World News is utter nonsense. Kill this, kill that moan moan moan...all over what? The burning of a handful of books. I understand WHY the US Army bloke made the Tiger Woods style public grovelling apology but I wouldn't have pandered to this fundamentalist rubbish. A simple apology "it was wrong, we didn't really notice, no offence meant" should be all that is offered and if that's not enough well tough. Shit happens, nobody died, get over it.
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fountainhall
Re: No sense of perspective
That's just the problem! It was not any old "books"! Some were copies of the Koran. Now, burning bibles in Christian countries may be no big deal, except perhaps to a small group of extremists. But burning the Koran in Afghanistan has caused huge problems before, and if anything should have been red-flagged/ring-fenced/whatever-you-call-it to be handled with the utmost tact, copies of the Koran is one of them.Captain Kirk wrote:The burning of a handful of books
Again, we may think it a minor issue. Millions and more ordinary followers of Islam around the world do not. Shit may happen and many may be killed as a result, but some shit is helluva lot more difficult to clean up than other shit! When the whole objective in Afghanistan is to get the population on-side and against the Taliban primarily so US forces can get out a.s.a.p., inflaming anti-US passions with this sort of shit is pure madness, with orders from above either not being followed or being ignored.
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Captain Kirk
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Re: No sense of perspective
It was a mistake. Had it been done in a spiteful way then that's one thing but when someone makes a mistake then make a protest if you must but the rest of this is rabblerousing by people who just refuse to get on with their lives. The US army guys have proven time and again they're not the sharpest tools in the box. I will join in with the outrage at some of the things they've done over there but any right minded Muslim must know that no offence was intended. Make a show of displeasure sure but anything further is nothng to do with religion.
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fountainhall
Re: No sense of perspective
Don't get me wrong. I agree with almost everything you have written. But you are looking at it from the wrong perspective. Muslim extremists do not look at it as a mistake. No doubt they feel the reading material should have been vetted before it went on to the bonfire. But my guess is that underneath the indignation and rhetoric, the leaders are actually quite pleased, because they now have yet another excuse to fire up the mobs' anger. Nothing is more sacred to Muslims than the Koran. The burning is perfect for creating chaos and uproar, irrespective of apologies and grovelling. I'll bet they play this episode out for all it is worth - and, I'll further bet, keep harking back to it. I am sure most "right-minded Muslims" feel as you do. Sadly, they are not the ones fighting the war and doing all the killing.
Re: No sense of perspective
I can understand your feelings but a fair amount of your feelings reflect a lack of understanding of their culture and thought processes. As a westerner, I deplore their beliefs but, given we are in their backyard, we should have taken extra efforts to avoid offending them deeply (no matter how stupid - based on western standards - we think that might be).Captain Kirk wrote:but any right minded Muslim must know that no offence was intended. Make a show of displeasure sure but anything further is nothng to do with religion.
It's not so different (although less serious, of course) when falangs come here and go nude or topless on the beaches, point their feet at somebody, or do a few other things that have no significance back in the west.
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fountainhall
Re: No sense of perspective
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17175568A Taliban suicide car bomber has killed at least nine people and wounded 10 others in an attack at Jalalabad airport in eastern Afghanistan.
The insurgents said the bombing was in revenge for a Koran-burning incident at a US air base a week ago.
These are the sort of crazies who will exploit the Koran burnings even to taking their own lives along with a host of others. "Get over it" was Captain Kirk's recommendation. Sorry Captain Kirk, these terrorists never have the same perspective as we do.
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Captain Kirk
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Re: No sense of perspective
Was there not also the shooting of a couple of army guys or something which they've said was in revenge for...yada yada yada..fountainhall wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17175568A Taliban suicide car bomber has killed at least nine people and wounded 10 others in an attack at Jalalabad airport in eastern Afghanistan.
The insurgents said the bombing was in revenge for a Koran-burning incident at a US air base a week ago.
These are the sort of crazies who will exploit the Koran burnings even to taking their own lives along with a host of others. "Get over it" was Captain Kirk's recommendation. Sorry Captain Kirk, these terrorists never have the same perspective as we do.
Anyway so what next? How would you reply? Got to say I'm a bit stumped on this one. Revenge killings only keep the thing rolling, do nothing and the zoomers may keep on going ayway.To be honest I think "the crazies" are nothing more than ill educated, brainwashed folk sent out to do the work of the actual crazies ( *those from that side anyway. plenty of crazies in Washington no less guilty of heinous acts).
Religion. You can keep it. Is it wrong that I believe I have the moral high ground as a non believer in God (in whichever guise)?
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fountainhall
Re: No sense of perspective
I don't think the moral high ground comes into what is essentially a war. I agree it should, but if often doesn't, especially where terrorists are concerned.
On the whole business of religion, I am a fence-sitter, one who often almost falls off on both sides but never quite makes it. I don't claim to have any moral high ground. But I accept the fact that there are religious "crazies" all over the place, some pretty close to what we variously call home. The Muslim faith certainly does not have a monopoly in that area.
The problem for non-Muslims, I think, is that we find it hard to accept that one's life has to be so intertwined with and built around the tenets of a religion on not just a daily basis, but an hourly basis. It rather smacks of a loss of the freedoms we jealously guard often to the point of arguments before the top courts in our respective lands. And those daily rituals and obediences find their basis in the Koran, a book written by the Prophet nearly 15 centuries ago.
At least the words of the Prophet were written down at the time. There is no such absolute certainty about the Christian texts in the Bible. As far as I am aware, the Old Testament is essentially myth and legend built around a few facts. Most of the New Testament was written many decades after the death of Christ. Even then, much of what is included - and, equally importantly, what was deliberately excluded - was decided by a bunch of clerics and scholars at Nicea some several hundred years later, convened by the Roman Emperor who had only just converted to Christianity with all the zeal of a convert to any religion! Despite all this doubt, many Christians believe much of the Bible essentially to be the word of God. (I assume the same is more or less true of those of the Jewish faith and the Torah, but I have little knowledge in this area).
So where will the events surrounding the Koran burning end? No idea! But as I suggested earlier, it will surely be played out for all it is worth by the crazies – and then some. Were it taken in isolation, I think the repercussions would have been over days ago. It has to be taken in a much larger context, though, one that goes back decades to the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, centuries to colonial occupations of Arab lands; even almost a millennium to the Crusades.
Foot-in-the-mouth George Bush did his armed forces a mountain of disfavours by referring to his War on Terror as a “Crusade”. There is no more sensitive word to Arab/Muslim ears because of the ghastly slaughter by the so-called peaceful Christian armies. That may be venturing too far from the topic at hand, but for many “crazies’ it represents the starting point of the war they are fighting today.
On the whole business of religion, I am a fence-sitter, one who often almost falls off on both sides but never quite makes it. I don't claim to have any moral high ground. But I accept the fact that there are religious "crazies" all over the place, some pretty close to what we variously call home. The Muslim faith certainly does not have a monopoly in that area.
The problem for non-Muslims, I think, is that we find it hard to accept that one's life has to be so intertwined with and built around the tenets of a religion on not just a daily basis, but an hourly basis. It rather smacks of a loss of the freedoms we jealously guard often to the point of arguments before the top courts in our respective lands. And those daily rituals and obediences find their basis in the Koran, a book written by the Prophet nearly 15 centuries ago.
At least the words of the Prophet were written down at the time. There is no such absolute certainty about the Christian texts in the Bible. As far as I am aware, the Old Testament is essentially myth and legend built around a few facts. Most of the New Testament was written many decades after the death of Christ. Even then, much of what is included - and, equally importantly, what was deliberately excluded - was decided by a bunch of clerics and scholars at Nicea some several hundred years later, convened by the Roman Emperor who had only just converted to Christianity with all the zeal of a convert to any religion! Despite all this doubt, many Christians believe much of the Bible essentially to be the word of God. (I assume the same is more or less true of those of the Jewish faith and the Torah, but I have little knowledge in this area).
So where will the events surrounding the Koran burning end? No idea! But as I suggested earlier, it will surely be played out for all it is worth by the crazies – and then some. Were it taken in isolation, I think the repercussions would have been over days ago. It has to be taken in a much larger context, though, one that goes back decades to the Russian invasion of Afghanistan, centuries to colonial occupations of Arab lands; even almost a millennium to the Crusades.
Foot-in-the-mouth George Bush did his armed forces a mountain of disfavours by referring to his War on Terror as a “Crusade”. There is no more sensitive word to Arab/Muslim ears because of the ghastly slaughter by the so-called peaceful Christian armies. That may be venturing too far from the topic at hand, but for many “crazies’ it represents the starting point of the war they are fighting today.
Re: No sense of perspective
Hmm, I suppose I'll be the lone voice speaking up for the US on this matter, but here goes. As I understand it, the three copies of the Koran in question were defaced by prisoners and used to pass messages to one another. I've been told the the appropriate procedure for disposing of a defaced Koran is through burning. Seems to me, that was what was done in accordance with Sariah (spelling?) law. If any mistake was made, I think it was to apologize for doing what Muslim clerics dictate should be done.
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Gaybutton
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Re: No sense of perspective
I agree, but I think what they should have done was to either turn the books over to Muslim clerics to do with them as they chose or called them in to conduct the burning. I think if either of those had taken place, none of the brouhaha would have occurred.RichLB wrote:If any mistake was made, I think it was to apologize for doing what Muslim clerics dictate should be done.