TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

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Gaybutton
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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:09 am
SEE LAW BELOW:

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0127.pdf
I'm not worried about traveling outside of my province. I would stay in hotels where they take care of it for you.

I'm talking about the requirement to report when you return home. My understanding is you can submit the TM28 at immigration or a local police station when you return home.

I appreciate you providing that PDF, but I'm not going to wade through 21 pages to find where it tells about the TM28. Can you direct me to the part that shows I'm wrong about my understanding?

Of course, I could simply try to submit the TM28 at a local police station upon returning home or, as I said, try giving it to a local police officer. If they won't take it and laugh me out of the police station, that's when I'd go to immigration.

The other options are to just stay home or return home within 24 hours of leaving my province. Then there is no requirement for a TM28.


I'm waiting to end up dealing with this kind of conversation:

Immigration: You have to pay fine. You not give TM28.
Me: But I tried to give the TM28. I tried to give it to the police, but they wouldn't take it. I tried to give it, right here at the immigration office, but they said they don't want it.
Immigration: You not give. Have to pay fine.
Me: How can I give if nobody will take?
Immigration: You not give. Have to pay fine.
Me: I attempted to give. Nobody would take.
Immigration: You not give. Have to pay fine.
Me: I just told you - I tried to give, but nobody would take. If nobody would take, that is not my fault. Why do I have to pay a fine?
Immigration: You not give. Have to pay fine. The law is the law.

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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by Dodger »

Gaybutton wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 11:30 am
Dodger wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 9:09 am
SEE LAW BELOW:

http://thailaws.com/law/t_laws/tlaw0127.pdf
I'm not worried about traveling outside of my province. I would stay in hotels where they take care of it for you.

I'm talking about the requirement to report when you return home. My understanding is you can submit the TM28 at immigration or a local police station when you return home.

I appreciate you providing that PDF, but I'm not going to wade through 21 pages to find where it tells about the TM28. Can you direct me to the part that shows I'm wrong about my understanding?
Section 37 covers everything we are legally responsible for: (My comments in "Bold")


Thai Immigration Act B.E. 2522 - 1979 Revision - Section 37.

An alien who is permitted to stay in the Kingdom temporarily shall do the following —

(1) Not engage in an occupation or employment except with permission from the Director-General or the competent official designated by the Director-General. In a case where there is alien working law providing otherwise, the permission shall have to be by virtue of that law.

(2) Reside at the place notified to the competent official except where the reason for not residing at the place notified to the competent official is justifiable, change of residence shall be notified to the competent official within twenty four hours from the time of moving into the residence. (This refers to the permanent address you provided immigration when you applied for your latest Extension of Stay.

(3) Notify the police officer at the police station of the locality jurisdiction in which the alien resides within twenty four hours from the time of moving in. In case of change of residence, if the new residence is not in the same locality jurisdiction as the locality of the former police station, the alien shall notify the police officer of the police station of the new locality jurisdiction within twenty four hours from the time of arrival. If you return to Thailand from overseas you must report to immigration to confirm the address you have on record. If you are returning and staying at a different address than that which is on record, you must notify the police station (or immigration) at the new location (town).

(4) If travel to any province and stay there longer than twenty four hours, an alien shall notify the police officer of the police station of the locality jurisdiction within forty eight hours from the time of arrival. (If you travel outside your province for +24 hours, you report this at the police station or immigration office in the town you are visiting).

(5) Staying in the Kingdom longer than ninety days, an alien shall notify the competent official at the Immigration Division, of his or her residence, in writing, without delay, upon the completion of a ninety day period. This shall be repeated at every ninety day interval. If there is an immigration office in the locality, the notification may be made to the competent official of that immigration office.

As we know, Immigration has developed operating procedures to align with these laws which specifically require the use of the TM28 Form for the reporting that's being addressed in Section 37 above. We have also come to understand that this Form was not being used, monitored, or enforced, for the past 40 years, and is currently in the process of being debated by the Heads of the Immigration Commission, where the TM28 may, or may not be, used at all in the future.

If a resident (retiree) wants to comply with the law the way it's currently written, then they should, by all means, complete the TM28 and provide it to the police or immigration when required. If the TM28 is refused by the competent official, then I see no other option than for the resident to record the name of the police or immigration staff who refused to accept it on the face of the TM28 Form, and forward a copy to the Residents Embassy explaining the situation and asking for direction. This is not the action I would take. But, if someone wants to follow the law (that no one else is following), then this seems to be the only viable solution.

.

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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:52 pm
if someone wants to follow the law (that no one else is following)
That no one else is following? How can you possibly know that?

I wish I could see something there that tells us we don't need to submit the TM28, but I don't. Again, some agree with you and some are saying just the opposite.

It doesn't matter what anyone says online. The only thing that matters is what immigration is saying and so far immigration is saying retirement visa holders have to do the TM28 when a hotel isn't doing it for you and when you return home. Maybe no one else is doing it, as you say, but I will be among those who comply with the law - even if no other farang but me, in all of Thailand, is in compliance. I won't like it. It will be inconvenient. But if anyone is going to defy Thai laws that could result in the loss of the retirement visa, it won't be me.

Do as you wish and I hope nothing happens to you as a result, but if I'm outside of the province for more than 24 hours, I'll let immigration be the ones who tell me they don't want the form. I'm not about to assume it isn't required because farang posting on the message boards interpret it that way.

Nothing personal, but if anybody is going to tell me I don't have to abide by this law, it isn't going to be you - or any other farang posting on a message board.

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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by Dodger »

Gaybutton wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 4:51 pm
I'll let immigration be the ones who tell me they don't want the form.
Just for clarification: I included comments about the TM28 Form (and cut n' paste the Law) with the intentions of providing you with some clarification regarding where you are required to submit the Form in the event you traveled outside your province for +24 hours, not with the intention of saying you shouldn't submit the Form if you felt inclined to do so.

Honestly, If someone were to tell me they always followed the letter of the law in Thailand, then I would ask them why they haven't been submitting a TM28 in the past every time they left their province for +24 hours. If they were to say it was because they didn't know the law existed, then I would say that's because it has never been used, monitored, or enforced, since its inception in 1979, and there's no way they possibly could have known it existed.

I understand the point that you're making, and not debating that. I, like you, always try to follow the law, and fully intend on doing whatever I need to do to stay complaint, although, I've taken a personal position to not be concerned with the TM28 Form until they (Immigration) decide how they're going to handle this going forward. I'm not suggesting other people should take my position, just stating my own opinion.

If you intend on being complaint with the TM28 law the way it's written today, then, according to law, the next time you travel outside your province for +24 hours you will need to go to the local police office, or immigration checkpoint in the province you're visiting, and hand them a TM28, unless in fact, they have the App up and running where this could then be done on line. There is nothing stopping you from being totally complaint with the law if you chose to do this. If the police station or immigration office where you submit the Form doesn't want to see it (which is reportedly occurring) you will have to decide on what actions to take after that to remain compliant with the law.

You asked me how I knew that everyone was not following this law. It's because various Members of the Immigration Commission started getting quoted in news releases back in July of this year that the TM30 and TM28 provisions in the Immigration Act, had not been monitored or enforced since their inception/1979, and that they now wanted to start enforcing them, with the primary focus being on TM30 (hotel reporting). In addition to that, I have never heard one single farang ever mention TM28 in the past 20 years. I have never heard anyone in Immigration even mention TM28 in 20 years. And, even now, after TM28 has surfaced, not one single person that I've talked to even knows what the law actually says regarding the use of this Form. That's a pretty good indication that no one was following it.

Honestly, and after writing so much about this ridiculous Form, I'm more concerned with when low tide will occur this month so Jai and I can continue our sea shell hunt, then I am about TM Anything.

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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:39 am
If you intend on being complaint with the TM28 law the way it's written today, then, according to law, the next time you travel outside your province for +24 hours you will need to go to the local police office, or immigration checkpoint in the province you're visiting, and hand them a TM28
If you are staying in a hotel, that is not true unless it's a hotel that doesn't submit the information for you. My issue is not what they want you to do when you are outside of your home province. It's what they want you to do when you return home.

In any case, the TM28 form has to be in the top 5 of the most ridiculous requirements. I'm trying to understand why everybody seems to be exempt except for farang living in Thailand on the retirement visa. Why are we not exempt? Anybody making sense out of that?

fountainhall

Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by fountainhall »

Dodger wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:52 pm
Section 37 covers everything we are legally responsible for: (My comments in "Bold")

(3) If you return to Thailand from overseas you must report to immigration to confirm the address you have on record.
I report to Immigration at BKK when I submit my arrival card with the address Immigration has had for years on its records. I cannot see anything in Section 37 that states another form is required!

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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by mahjongguy »

Just for the benefit of anyone who hasn't seen the TM28 before. Click on the image for a better view.

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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by Dodger »

fountainhall wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:18 am
Dodger wrote:
Sat Sep 21, 2019 1:52 pm
Section 37 covers everything we are legally responsible for: (My comments in "Bold")

(3) If you return to Thailand from overseas you must report to immigration to confirm the address you have on record.
I report to Immigration at BKK when I submit my arrival card with the address Immigration has had for years on its records. I cannot see anything in Section 37 that states another form is required!
As long as your address hasn't changed - no additional form is needed.

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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by Dodger »

Gaybutton wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 11:08 am
Dodger wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 10:39 am
If you intend on being complaint with the TM28 law the way it's written today, then, according to law, the next time you travel outside your province for +24 hours you will need to go to the local police office, or immigration checkpoint in the province you're visiting, and hand them a TM28
If you are staying in a hotel, that is not true unless it's a hotel that doesn't submit the information for you. My issue is not what they want you to do when you are outside of your home province. It's what they want you to do when you return home.
Oh boy...this is gonna get confusing:

The way the law is written, it doesn't matter where you lodge during your stay in another province, you are still required to submit a TM28 Report. If you stay at a hotel, the hotel is required to process a TM30 Report (that still pertains to people with all visa types), and you are required to process a TM28 Report (excludes Tourists and Business Travelers). Obviously, this is beyond ridiculous, thus the reason Tourists and Business Travelers (and others) have recently been exempt from this requirement. Court is still out on the decision regarding residents (retiree's), and frankly, it could stay out for another 40 years.

There is nothing that I can see in the law that requires any type of reporting when you return home from a visit outside your province. I know there have been statements made in the press, some even coming from immigration staff, saying that you must also report back in to your local immigration when you return from a trip, but, honestly, and I really hesitate saying this, they are actually misinterpreting their own requirements, as that requirement is not included (or, mentioned) in the Immigration Act (Law).

This TM28 has been sitting on a cold rock for so long that no one, not even those sitting on the Immigration Commission, appear to have a full understanding of the law, as it was written in 1979. Right now, we know more about this Form than they do. And believe me, we care more about this Form than they do too.

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Re: TM6 - the arrival and departure cards - to end, TM30 app to be created

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Sun Sep 22, 2019 12:53 pm
Oh boy...this is gonna get confusing
Not for me. I think we've been back and forth about this quite enough. I see nothing to be gained by debating this further. I've said what I'm going to do and you've said what you're going to do. Everybody else will decide for themselves what they're going to do.

You know who really knows for sure what's going on with these forms? Nobody.

I'm done with this until more news articles are published or immigration comes out with a statement.

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