Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

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Gaybutton
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

Post by Gaybutton »

Smiles wrote:Has anyone heard that the US Embassy income rules - i.e. providing actual proof - may be changing in the near future?
There is no indication of any kind that the US Embassy ever intends to change the rules.

I don't believe for a second that Thai Immigration is unaware of how it works at the US Embassy. Apparently, the only thing that makes any difference to them is whether you have the piece of paper they want. I wouldn't be surprised if Thai Immigration eventually changes their own rules about proof-of-income. After all, sudden, unexpected rule changes are not exactly uncommon at Thai Immigration.

I've never really understood why Thai Immigration requires proof-of-income statements from embassies rather than having retirement visa applicants prove it to them. Nevertheless, that's the way it works.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

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Gaybutton wrote:
Alex wrote:End of the story. I've never heard of any secondary punishment back home for any immigration offences abroad.
End of story? I don't know that. What makes you think you know it? You think just because you've never heard of it, then it doesn't exist?
I guess my point is that I've read many long-term overstay and deportation stories over the years, but no mention has ever been made of any attempt to prosecute or otherwise punish the offender in their home country on top of what Thailand has in stock. It's also counter-intuitive to me for the reason I've given; people should be punished for one crime only once and there's also the question of jurisdiction.

thaivisa.com, among other websites, is a great source for that kind of story, both first-hand from those who have experienced it and second-hand from others who have helped long-term overstayers to come clean. That's where you can also read what justifications/excuses these people have for overstaying, so you might be able to satisfy your interest regarding that question there as well.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

Post by Gaybutton »

Alex wrote:people should be punished for one crime only once and there's also the question of jurisdiction.
I didn't know we were discussing the way things should be. I thought we were discussing the way things are. As for being punished once, it doesn't always work that way. For Americans, if you're arrested, tried, convicted, and imprisoned in Thailand for engaging in under-age sex, you've got a lot more legal problems waiting for you when you return to the USA.

Even within the USA, a person can be tried for having committed murder. The victim's family can also file a wrongful death lawsuit. While technically the accused is not being tried twice for the same crime, essentially that's exactly what's happening, even if the accused is found not guilty in the criminal proceeding. The infamous O.J. Simpson case is an example of that.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

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Gaybutton wrote:Even within the USA, a person can be tried for having committed murder. The victim's family can also file a wrongful death lawsuit. While technically the accused is not being tried twice for the same crime, essentially that's exactly what's happening, even if the accused is found not guilty in the criminal proceeding. The infamous O.J. Simpson case is an example of that.
Apples and oranges, please. Not only is the accused not being tried twice for the same crime, in a civil case they are being tried for the damage they've caused to a third party. Accordingly, that court ordered O.J. to pay damages to the family of the victim, it had no authority to imprison or fine him to make up for the criminal court's failure to punish him for his crime (if it had had that authority, I'd agree with your conclusion). Those who hold public office could even be subjected to a third kind of trial - impeachment - all essentially for the same criminal activity.

That is hardly relevant with regards to immigration offences in Thailand though. Your other example for potential "double punishment" is even more flawed, and it's flawed for a different reason: Regarding the abuse of minors abroad, there are specific provisions in a specific law (the "PROTECT Act") that give US courts jurisdiction to try these cases. These provisions don't apply to any other offences outside the scope of that law.

The most likely scenario for someone being prosecuted in the US upon returning after overstaying in Thailand is that - in their particular case - absconding or staying away from the US constitutes a crime in its own right. There are many examples for that, obviously, but that would also be a crime even if that person's stay in Thailand had been legal. So it doesn't qualify as an additional punishment for overstaying abroad either.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

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Alex wrote:Your other example for potential "double punishment" is even more flawed
Ok, my examples are flawed.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

Post by 2lz2p »

The most likely scenario for someone being prosecuted in the US upon returning after overstaying in Thailand is that - in their particular case - absconding or staying away from the US constitutes a crime in its own right. There are many examples for that, obviously, but that would also be a crime even if that person's stay in Thailand had been legal. So it doesn't qualify as an additional punishment for overstaying abroad either.
??? Comment needs clarification IMO. To my knowledge it is not a crime to be staying away from US or absconding unless we know what they absconded with. It is a crime to flee justice: Wikipedia
A fugitive from justice, also known as a wanted person, can be a person who is either convicted or accused of a crime and hiding from law enforcement in the state or taking refuge in a different country in order to avoid arrest.[1]
Also, many in US may not know this, but you can be tried for the same crime - tried under State law and under Federal law if the crime is covered by both. However, it is rare for one jurisdiction to try someone again once they are tried and convicted by the other. The principle as it was explained to me many years ago by an Assistant US Attorney is that the State and the Federal Government are separate sovereigns and both have the right to try the individual. No, I wasn't being prosecuted. I often dealt with the US Attorney's office in various jurisdictions as part of my job with a Federal Agency.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

Post by Gaybutton »

Also, 'unlawful flight to avoid prosecution' is a crime too, isn't it? And if the court considers those accused of a serious crime to be a flight risk, they usually are held without bail or a bail amount so high they're unlikely to be able to come up with it.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

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2lz2p wrote: ??? Comment needs clarification IMO. To my knowledge it is not a crime to be staying away from US or absconding unless we know what they absconded with.
Staying away from the country by itself isn't a crime, sure. That's why I wrote that it might constitute a crime "in their particular case". Some people have been ordered not to leave the country, to appear before a judge on a set date, etc.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

Post by Gaybutton »

We're getting way off topic. Let's get back to how all this applies to Thailand and the upcoming visa overstay penalties.
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Re: Visa overstay blacklisting to begin in March

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Police nab 110 foreigners in overstay, criminal cases

The Nation
December 22, 2015

The Immigration Police Bureau yesterday announced cases of foreigners caught for overstaying their visas and committing crimes.

So far, 108 foreigners have been rounded up for overstay after authorities decided to conduct regular checks on foreign visitors from 19 to 25 of every month. Those caught so far are eight Somalis, three from Papua New Guinea, three Nigerians, a Mali national, a Liberian, 50 Pakistanis, 15 Indians, a Sri Lankan, a Bangladeshi, three Vietnamese and 22 other nationals.

Immigration Bureau chief Pol Lt-General Natthorn Praosunthorn said Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha had issued an order banning those who overstay for more than a year from entering the country for three years. If they overstay their visa for three years, they will be banned for five years, while a five-year overstay carries a ban of 10 years.

The order, announced in the Royal Gazette, will go into effect in March.

Visitors whose visas have expired are encouraged to turn themselves in or they will face heavy penalties when caught. Natthorn said the crackdown was part of a move to boost security in the country as many foreigners who overstay their visas are involved in crimes.

Separately, a French man was arrested and charged with attempted murder, detention and robbery, police said yesterday. Kraiba Safy, 26, was arrested on December 11 in Bangkok's Bang Rak district. It has been alleged that Safy and two other men had been trafficking drugs in France, and had fled to Spain and Thailand after getting into conflicts. French police nabbed two suspects in Rayong, who then implicated Safy as being the mastermind.

In a second case, American boxer Malik Naeem Watson-Smith, 23, who once fought Thai boxer "Bua Kao", was caught on December 14 in Chon Buri for overstaying his visa. He had earlier been charged with assault and was granted bail on May 19, 2010, under condition that he could not leave the country without court permission.

Eveniy Gubarev, 37, a Russian national, was arrested on December 17 for overstaying, and is also wanted on charges of fraud and laundering money.

An unnamed 47-year-old Belgian was arrested on December 20 for overstaying by 305 days. He arrived on January 20 and was allowed to stay until February 18.

Story and photos: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/nationa ... 75394.html
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