Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

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Undaunted
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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Undaunted »

Gaybutton wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:01 am I really don't see why people are making such a big fuss about this. From what I understand, this whole brouhaha is just another worry that has needlessly frightened people.
And as been shown so many times before, what better place than this to make a “brouhaha"?
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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton »

Furore over TM30 forms

Special report: Paperwork burden repels foreigners, write Kornchanok Raksaseri and Wassayos Ngamkham

August 5, 2019

Long-term foreign residents are crying foul at the strict implementation of the TM30 reporting rules, saying that it will only penalise law-abiding foreigners and have little effect on ill-intentioned criminals and other wrongdoers who skirt the law and evade the requirements.

The reinforcement of regulations regarding the so-called TM30 form is outlined in the 1979 Immigration Act.

The TM30 is a form that landlords which provide accommodation to foreigners must submit to the authorities within 24 hours of the arrival of their tenants.

By law, landlords must submit the form to authorities every time their tenants return to the country.

Long-term foreign residents are also required to report their whereabouts if they spend more than 24 hours at places other than their registered addresses.


Image

Landlords and tenants who fail to comply face fines of between 800 to 2,000 baht, although the sum seems to differ across different immigration offices.

A foreign NGO worker who asked not to be named said that he doesn't think that form is a problem, as it is his landlord's responsibility to submit the form to authorities.

The NGO worker, who has been living in Thailand for eight years, said he has a one-year visa and reports to officers at Chaeng Watthana immigration office every 90 days and 30 days once in a while.

He said that while he finds it weird that has to leave the country as he waits for his visa extension to be approved, he has done so nonetheless.

"The law is the law, and the rule is the rule," he said.

However, he was asked about the TM30 form for the first time when he last came in for his usual 90-day report.

"An officer asked me if my landlord has submitted the TM30 form," he said.

"When I told him I had no clue, the officer said that I could submit the report on my landlord's behalf, which I refused to do."

"I am not currently sure how exactly this TM30 works and what the consequences are if it's not followed," he said, before adding that he doubted the effectiveness of the measure.

"Those who have bad intentions and want to avoid the rules will skirt the rules anyway," he said.

Yomi Sonubi, the Projects and Operations Director of Needeed Foundation who has been living in Thailand for six years, said the TM30 would not be a problem if tenants maintain good relations and communication with their landlords.

"However, it will be a problem for foreigners who have to travel abroad often," he said, before adding that the additional burden has caused some staff to think about relocating.

Mr Sonubi's concern was echoed across several online forums, where many foreigners voiced their frustration over the tedious reporting process.

A netizen who goes by "drsmith" said that his family decided to cancel their two-week trip to Thailand after learning about the entire TM30 ordeal.

"After reading that we have to report our every move, we decided to cancel our vacation to go somewhere more friendly," he wrote.

Another netizen, who goes by the username "borthong" wrote, "I don't know about others, but I am not travelling to a country where I've spent millions of baht to be treated like a criminal or person on bail who has to be tracked."

The Bangkok Post spoke to several Thai landlords but none wanted to discuss the matter out of concern they might be fined by the Immigration Bureau (IB).

Meanwhile, IB chief Pol Lt Gen Sompong Chingduang admitted there are problems that need to be addressed to improve understanding of the regulation among landlords.

Pol Lt Gen Sompong said many of those who provide accommodation to foreigners are unaware they are required to report their tenants' whereabouts to authorities. He also said that many private homeowners choose to ignore the entire procedure, while hotel and guesthouse owners are more familiar with the process.

Pol Lt Gen Sompong said that some operators have complained that the 24-hour period for reporting is not enough.

He also said that some landlords refuse to report their foreign tenants to authorities, leaving in to their tenants to report their presence themselves. He said efforts are being made to improve understanding of the law, and that reporting could be done via an app called "Section 38".

However, Pol Lt Gen Sompong stressed that the TM30 process will continue to be enforced in the future, despite the problems it is encountering.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/sp ... tm30-forms
fountainhall

Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by fountainhall »

Gaybutton wrote: Sat Jun 29, 2019 10:01 am Again, if anyone really is worried about it, then just do a TM30 form and give it to immigration.
I'm not worried. I will just refuse to fill it in every time I return from an overseas trip.
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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton »

TM-30 Opinion Piece:
_________________

Opinion: TM30 Alienating Law-Abiding Aliens

By: Pravit Rojanaphruk, Senior Staff Writer

August 18, 2019

BANGKOK — Imagine you’re an expat in a country where you must report to the police within 48 hours each time you travel to another province for longer than 24 hours.

Amazingly restrictive and burdensome, isn’t it? Welcome to Thailand 2019!

Whether it makes sense or not, Thai immigration police are requiring expats living in Thailand to do just that through an online “TM30” form.

The commander of Bangkok’s immigration police, Pol. Maj. Gen. Patipat Suban na Ayudhaya, insists it’s for the safety of both foreigners and Thais.

“We will try our best to distinguish between the good and bad guys. I promise all of you: we try,” Patipat told the jam-packed, mostly frustrated western audience at the Foreign Correspondents’ Club of Thailand on Thursday evening.

The law requiring foreigners to report themselves has been around since 1979, during the height of the Cold War. But immigration police have only just begun enforcing it (though tourists are largely spared when hotels fill out the form for travelers).

Expats have the option to fill out the form online, but many say the application is slow and that it takes as long as five weeks just to get a login password.

Patipat’s main immigration superintendent, Pol. Col. Thatchapong Sarawanangkul, insisted that is nothing wrong with the online app, however.

Nevertheless, even Thatchapong admitted he has to work until 10pm every night with no holidays, even though his wife will give birth to their baby by the end of this month, in order to clear the forms.

Patipat added that only 10 officers have been assigned to handle the online app, in further admittance that immigration police are ill-equipped to manage the controversial online form. Officers have to check reports one by one in the hopes of spotting potential ‘alien criminals’ bent on committing crimes in Thailand.

This may be a noble goal but let us pause for a second. Would a real alien criminal be foolish enough to submit genuine details of their latest whereabouts in order to wait for the Thai immigration police to arrest or deport them? The chances of catching bad guys from the TM30 immigration form are very slim.

It’s the majority of expats in Thailand – the so-called good aliens – who bear the brunt of the inconvenience and feel stifled. It’s as if Thailand is turning into a police state for largely law-abiding expats.

Instead of making them feel welcomed and at home so Thailand can boost its economy and enrich its culture and society, the pedantic TM30 immigration form has alienated hundreds of thousands of law-abiding expats. Mounting damage is growing on a daily basis in the form of increased numbers considering whether living in Thailand is worth the trouble.

When something makes no sense, it should be done away with. For decades the regulation wasn’t even imposed. It’s not too late to make the law defunct again before it ends up causing more problems than it solves.

TM30 is an unnecessary waste of time and resources in the name of national security. Such pedantic and restrictive rules don’t belong in a country wanting to attract more foreign expats and investments.

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/opinion/2 ... ng-aliens/
ISAC69

Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by ISAC69 »

No wonder numbers of tourists are falling ,not only imposing restrictions on expats, but also more and more restrictions on short term tourists coming to Thailand. Before, to receive 2 months visa, you just drop your passport at your local travel agent and receive it back after one or two working days. Now you have to show up at the Embassy , and give them your bank account statement, proof of salary, a statement from your employer and so on ... complete madness.
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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton »

ISAC69 wrote: Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:12 pm complete madness.
While I can understand why Thailand would want to take precautions especially in this day and age of terrorism, but when those precautions become absurd and self-defeating, this loss of face nonsense about admitting going way overboard really does have a major impact on far too many perfectly innocent people.

To the best of my knowledge, the only terrorist incidents in Thailand have been perpetrated by separatist extremists from the south of Thailand who want their provinces ceded to Malaysia. Of course, I don't recall Malaysia ever saying they even want those provinces in the first place, but there it is.

As for organized crime perpetrated by foreigners, most of that has come from China, Russia, the Ukraine, and once in a while Korea.

Meanwhile, who suffers most from these regulations? People from western Europe, UK, and the USA. And hardly any serious incidents have ever been committed by anyone from those countries. Offhand, I don't recall a single one.

What bothers me most is this utter nonsense about being forced to hold 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account so farang retirees can have enough money to support themselves if necessary. But if it becomes necessary during the wrong 5 months and/or the money can't be replaced in time, those same retirees will lose their retirement visa. Now, even if you can prove the minimum monthly income of 65,000 baht, unless the paperwork satisfies an immigration official, the proof will be rejected and no retirement visa. A farang can go to immigration with plenty of proof, but cannot be sure the proof will be accepted. So, farang who need to use the 65,000 baht per month method have that Sword of Damocles hanging over their heads. Even if the proof is accepted, it is still impossible to be certain that same proof will be accepted when the time comes to renew the visa. Because of these rules, many people who do have the means to support themselves have been forced out.

On top of that, a farang cannot get the retirement visa at all within Thailand if he doesn't hold a Thai bank account and I don't know if a farang needs to already hold a Thai bank account when applying for the visa from his home country. But opening a Thai bank account has become next to impossible unless the farang already holds the retirement visa. Welcome to "Catch 22".

And the Thai officials responsible for this lunacy keep trying to justify this nonsense.

No problem, though. Let's just make it very simple for hordes of Chinese tourists - the ones who hardly spend any money at all in Thailand - the ones whose behavior is so disgusting they actually have to be given pamphlets explaining how to behave - to come to Thailand, but make it too much of a hassle to attract large numbers of farang tourists who need no such pamphlet, do spend a lot of money in Thailand, and don't commit crimes.

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton »

My take on this: The bottom line is - you know what is going to change or be improved? Nothing . . .

You know what this meeting accomplished? Nothing . . .

You know what was even mentioned about the 800,000 baht and 65,000 baht per month rule? Nothing . . .
____________________________________________________________________________________________

Confusion reigns in TM30 palaver

Special report: Expats 'none the wiser' after FCCT forum, immigration put on defensive, writes Thana Boonlert

19 Aug 2019

Long-term foreign residents of the kingdom have spent the weekend scratching their heads in bewilderment over the baffling requirements of the now notorious TM30 form after a recent forum at the Foreign Correspondents' Club of Thailand (FCCT) with senior Thai immigration officials present on the panel.

On Thursday evening at the FCCT, foreign expats and guest speakers alike expressed concerns about the lack of clarity and consistency in the application of the TM30 regulation, and the officials said they would do their best to forward the complaints and queries to Immigration Bureau Chief Pol Lt Gen Sompong Chingduang.

However, the officials hastened to warn they could neither promise a time frame for which some of the more onerous requirements might be eased or reviewed, or even whether it would happen at all, stressing repeatedly that national security is paramount.

On the books for 40 years but not rigorously enforced until March 25 this year, under the 1979 Immigration Act, the TM30 rule requires Thai landlords who provide accommodation to foreigners to report their presence to immigration within 24 hours of their arrival and departure.

Long-stayers, including foreign retirees, foreigners married to Thais, and foreigners working in fields providing much-needed expertise, among other categories, must also report their whereabouts within 24 hours under another rule called TM28 when they stay at locations other than their registered primary residence, say when they visit another province, or when they return from overseas trips.

According to the officials at the forum, reporting is an "easy" process and can be done in person at local immigration offices, by mail or via online registration and an app, though these assertions were met with murmurs of disbelief by some foreigners at the event who told the Bangkok Post they have waited in queues of up to 300 people, or dealt with an online system and app they insisted does not function properly.

What could have been an ill-tempered event proceeded quite cordially, though at times the terse questions of event moderator, British journalist and past FCCT president Dominic Faulder, may have caught the immigration officials off-guard and put them on the defensive, according to some of the old-hand foreigners present.

Crime prevention

Mr Faulder pointed out that nobody has noticed a particular deterioration in the security situation in Thailand recently "except for some ping pong bombs that had nothing to do with foreigners".

Nevertheless, Pol Maj Gen Patipat Suban Na Ayudhya, the commander of Immigration Division 1 and the most senior official at the event, cited national security as the main reason for the strict enforcement of TM30.

"A couple of years ago, many cases happened in Thailand. A lot of terrorists came here and did something not good to my country. We have to use the law [TM30] again. Some people don't know whether it is legal or illegal to keep foreigners in their residence.

"You don't know whether foreigners at your house are good or bad guys. That is the reason. We try to save you and my country. The first reason is your safety because you don't know who is a good guy or not," he said.

Nevertheless, offering a glimmer of hope, Pol Maj Gen Patipat added: "We're going to bring the problems to my commanders when we meet to change the rules for good guys like you. But we don't know when we will be done.

"We try our best to distinguish between the good guys and bad guys. I promise all of you. We try."

Pol Maj Gen Patipat was referring to the "Good guys in, bad guys out" slogan of the Immigration Bureau with respect to Thailand wishing to see the back of criminals, terrorists and other wrongdoers.

Pol Col Thatchapong Sarawanangkul, superintendent of Immigration Division 1 Sub-Division 2, said the TM30 rule aims to curb the opportunity for crimes to be committed by ill-intentioned foreigners in Thailand.

"We are not focusing on you [law-abiding foreigners]. We are focusing on those who don't comply with the law. We can arrest criminals by using this rule.

"Criminals don't want anybody to see them. If you can tell an officer who is staying in your place, I think we can reduce opportunities for offenders to commit crime," he said.

Technical glitches

Hit with a barrage of complaints about technical snags with the registration process, Pol Maj Gen Patipat said this might have been caused by the incomplete submission of documents.

"I understand your problems with usernames and passwords. We try our best to improve the documents. You didn't know whether you filled in everything online. That is the reason. You didn't know if it is complete or not," he said.

Pol Col Thatchapong, who said he has to work until past 10pm every day in order to cope with the number of TM30 application forms flooding into his divisional office, concluded that filing a TM30 was "really not that hard and it's easier than telling your wife you're at home".

Practical solution?

Chris Larkin, a director of the Australian Chamber of Commerce and a member of AustCham's Advocacy Group who was one of the guest speakers, said security concerns are a legitimate matter, but suggested to the immigration officials that qualified foreigners who want to stay in Thailand longer should be given long-term visas rather than a yearly extension.

To get this kind of visa, Mr Larkin proposed that police reports be provided from foreigners' home countries to reassure Thai immigration.

Mr Larkin also urged Thailand to expand its pink card ID system.

"Every Thai citizen has a house book and an ID card. This is an example. The pink ID card registers [its holder's] name and address, which goes into the government system. It could be made easier for foreigners who stay longer than 90 days in Thailand to get these ID cards, like migrant workers," he said.

"I think this system would be much better. It makes everyone feel they are part of Thailand. You don't have to reinvent the system because you already do it for 2 million migrant workers."

'Too much paperwork'

Some of the panellists, including Mr Larkin, pointed out that the resuscitation of the TM30 rule adds to the already hefty pile of immigration paperwork that expats and other long-stayers must wade their way through.

Examples they gave were the TM6 forms when foreigners arrive in Thailand, the TM28 forms concerning short-term travel, and the TM47 forms when they report in their whereabouts to immigration every 90 days.

"I think the Immigration Bureau is experiencing problems of too much paperwork. It is a waste of your resources. Don't waste your time doing paperwork. Go find the bad guys," Mr Larkin said.

Law 'must be logical'

Sebastian Brousseau, a Canadian lawyer with permanent residency in Thailand who has organised a petition among expats in the country to "reform Thai immigration" and who was also a guest speaker, insisted to the Thai officials present that the immigration laws "must be logical".

In one of the more heated exchanges of the evening, Mr Brousseau, responding to comments by Pol Col Thatchapong, said: "I'm sick and tired of hearing the law is the law ... TM30 was not enforced before, so basically the law is the law, we gave you some solutions … and you tell me the law is the law. The law must be logical, rational, efficient."

Clarity and consistency

Richard Barrow, a Thailand-based blogger and long-term resident who was another one of the guest speakers at the forum, called for clarity and consistency by Thai immigration in enforcing the TM30 and TM28 rules.

"The landlord has to register foreigners within 24 hours. The problem is the landlord might have 10-15 units. It is a lot of work for them to keep registering foreigners every time they come back from a trip. Sometimes, the landlord is not even in the same city or country," he said.

Mr Barrow said Thai landlords also have to queue up at Chaeng Watthana [immigration office] to report their presence, greatly inconveniencing them. "Now some apartment blocks are putting up signs saying 'no foreigners' because they don't want the hassle," he said.

Although reporting can be done online, Mr Barrow said people have experienced difficulties in the registration process because the system is fraught with software glitches.

"It is not working as well as it should do. People who apply online take many weeks before they get usernames and passwords [to access the application system].

"The immigration officers suggest that the online form is the best way of doing it, if it works. My opinion is they should have sorted it first before they started enforcing the law. Once it is sorted, it should be simple and take one or two minutes to register," he said.

Though he suggested that the TM30 rule does not affect the tourism industry, Mr Barrow conceded that domestic travel and tourism is suffering a downturn because expats are afraid of going away for weekends for fear of having to keep reporting themselves to the authorities on their return under the TM28 rule.

"When I asked the immigration officer, his solution was travel less!

"I am not asking for the TM30 to be abolished. As a guest in this country, I respect and will try to obey the law as much as I can, but all I am asking for is clarity and consistency.

"Clarity means we want to understand what is going on because it is very confusing. Consistency means that one immigration office insists that when you go to another province and come back, you should do the TM30 whereas the other says don't worry about it," he said.

'None the wiser'

As the forum drew to a close, some of the attendees expressed frustration that many of their questions had gone unanswered and that little progress seemed to have been achieved with the meeting of minds, while others continued to gripe about the inefficiency of the online TM30 system.

Paul Williams, 73, an urban transport planner from the UK, complained about the online form registration.

"I tried to comply and twice applied online. I think I have sent all the documents. One was two months ago. One was a month ago. I've had no response," he complained.

An elderly American man, resident in Thailand for more than 20 years and who asked not to be named for fear of recrimination from the immigration authorities, said: "I'm as confused at the end of this as I was at the start. I still don't know for sure what documents I need to produce to do this TM30 thing and when I need to do it."

Another long-term resident from Australia who also declined to be named, said: "I've been here for hours listening to these lot. It's very frustrating and I'm none the wiser."

A British woman who said she had been resident in Thailand for upwards of 10 years, struck a more conciliatory tone, but still insisted on maintaining anonymity.

"Well, at least they [the immigration officials] turned up and listened. I hadn't been expecting them to. Maybe they'll go back to HQ and tell their bosses there's a serious problem here [with TM30]," she said.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/sp ... 30-palaver
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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Dodger »

If I were to leave Thailand to visit another country I would fill out a TM30 upon my return to Thailand. If I were to sell my condo and move to another residence I would complete a TM30. If I were to travel within Thailand to visit other provinces I would not be completing the TM30, or reporting anything to anyone, regardless of the length of stay in another province.

The TM30 Reporting Process was a poorly designed and totally unmanageable policy from the very beginning, thus the reason it was never enforced by anyone. Attempting to enforce it, as they are trying to do now, or, at least saying they're trying to do, has resulted in the realization that the TM30 Policy, as it stands, is a major systemic failure and could never possibly be enforced the way it is currently structured. It will remain so until it is either completely redesigned and restructured, or, replaced by another manageable Reporting System.

As reported, the on-line TM30 reporting app was not designed and/or implemented correctly and does not allow quick and easy reporting as intended. Rather, it either doesn't work at all, or is extremely slow and cumbersome resulting in people simply not using it. As Immigration has stated themselves, they have to burn midnight oil in an attempt to process the incoming Reports, and even after doing so, find themselves literally buried, which is coming as no surprise to anyone.

As always, Immigration is attempting to push this problem down to the users (farang), when the solution to the problem belongs to them (the owners), and only them. Again, here we go with that, READY-FIRE-AIM approach to management.

You guys can address this situation anyway you choose, but as far as I'm concerned, I plan to just sit back and let them deal with their own problem. I do the 90 day reporting routine, and as stated earlier, would complete a TM30 if I left the country or moved to another place of residence, but with those exceptions, will not be getting involved with this mess of theirs. Before they fine anyone, they first have to have the capabilities to find the infraction first. Do you really think they can do that with tens of thousands of TM30's being bottle-necked and the state their TM30 database is most likely in right now? It would be like finding a needle in a haystack - and right now they can't even see a broomstick.
traveller123

Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by traveller123 »

I have a yellow "house book'
It seems completely unnecessary to submit a TM30 if I take a trip outside of Thailand.
fountainhall

Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by fountainhall »

traveller123 wrote: Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:21 am I have a yellow "house book'
It seems completely unnecessary to submit a TM30 if I take a trip outside of Thailand.
I have been on trips out of Thailand on each of the first six months of this year. My next starts tomorrow. Apart from September, I will again travel during each of the remaining months. I have written before that Immigration has all my details of the apartment I own many times over and I always return to it after arrival. Given that I usually am out of the country 10 - 12 times a year, I have actually given them my address well over 150 times. I will not complete the TM30 forms in addition to the airport arrival form and the annual renewal.

When this law was introduced, I wonder how many foreigners actually lived and/or worked and/or had retired in Thailand? I suspect a very small number. Now in 2019 that number will have mushroomed vastly. Resurrecting a law that worked 44 years ago without updating and amending it to take account of massively changed conditions is just plain nuts. It also has the effect of placing all retirees in the same box. In 1975, my guess is that the majority of expats did not travel much. After all, budget airlines in Asia had not been invented! So they basically stayed in the country. In 2019 some live here in rented accommodation. Some have invested quite an amount in an apartment. Some travel several times a year and never in their lives have had to do a 90-day report - like me. Others stay here with perhaps one or two trips out of Thailand each year at most. Laws that are not updated reveal the legal system to be an ass!

It's all rather like a quote from the eminent French statesman Jean Baptiste Colbert who stated in the 17th century, “If you enact a law and do not enforce it, you are condoning what you condemn.” So for how many years - 20? 30? - Thailand condoned what it condemned. Now it is at sixes and sevens as to how to reenact it without any revision.

Mind you, other countries have laws on the statute books that are the height of stupidity in 2019. How many times have Londoners hailed a passing taxi? Zillions? Well that's against the law! According to section 33 of the London Hackney Carriages Act of 1843, even if a passing licensed taxi has its “for hire” light on, the driver is only allowed to seek trade when at a standstill. How many other examples are there of "the law is an ass!?
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