Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton » Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:32 pm

The following is only a partial article coming from the Khaosod English News. Unfortunately the Khaosod News web site is down at the moment and I have not been able to find the full article elsewhere.
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Immigration Says TM30 Fix Underway, Pleads for Understanding

August 31, 2019

BANGKOK — Bangkok’s immigration chief is no rookie. He’s been in the service for 35 years, but current immigration protocols have been in place even longer. “Things were very different back then,” Maj. Gen. Patipat Suban na Ayudhaya said. “First, there weren’t so many foreign residents at the time. So the system we implemented didn’t have this many problems either.” “When there weren’t many people, it was easy,” he said.

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The next article comes from the Phuket News. Your guess is as good as mine as to whether it applies only to Phuket immigration or universally throughout Thailand.
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Right on time: Phuket Immigration explain TM30 and TM28 requirements for reporting foreigners

by Tanyaluk Sakoot

August 31, 2019

PHUKET: Phuket Immigration this week made it very clear that foreigners applying for any extension of stay will not be held liable for filing the TM30 form, made infamous in recent weeks by waves of confusion elsewhere in the country.

“No, we don’t hold foreigners responsible for filing the TM30. Foreigners just need to make sure that they fill in a TM28. The TM30 is the landlord’s job,” Phuket Immigration Deputy Chief Col Nareuwat Putthawiro said plainly on Wednesday (Aug 28).

The TM30 is the form for landlords to report to Immigration within 24 hours of the arrival of any foreign tenants, as required under Section 38 of the Thailand Immigration Act of 1979.

The TM28 form is for foreigners to report themselves to Immigration after staying away from their registered address for more than 24 hours, as required under Section 37 (c) of the same act.

“The TM30 is the house owner’s responsibility, whether the home owner is a Thai or a foreigner,” Col Nareuwat said.

If a landlord refuses to – or is unable to – comply by filing a TM30 to report the foreigner as staying, or returning to stay, at the foreigner’s registered address, that is not the foreigner’s responsibliity, Col Nareuwat explained.

“All the foreigner has to do is submit a TM28. That’s all the foreigner is responsible for. If the foreigner is applying for an extension to stay, they need not worry about whether or not their landlord has reported them through a TM30 – it will not affect the foreigner’s application,” he added.

“They will not be told to leave the Kingdom if their landlord has not filed a TM30 reporting them,” he assured.

However, the requirement for foreigners to re-report themselves as staying at – or returning to – their registered address within 24 hours of their arrival by filing a TM28 remains in effect, Col Nareuwat told The Phuket News.

Asked whether foreigners must submit a completed TM28 every time they return to their registered address, Col Nareuwat said, “Yes, they must do.”

Col Nareuwat added that filing a TM28 remains separate from the 90-day reporting requirement, as completed by filing a TM47.

“Yes, please also file a TM47 every 90 days as normal,” he said.

Landlords who fail to report foreigners staying on their property will be fined, Col Nareuwat said.

“If the landlord ignores this (filing the TM30), they will be fined up to B2,000,” he assured.

“The fine under Section 77 of the act is actually up to B10,000, but the higher fines are used only for hotels or guesthouses that willfully ignore the requirement.

“A foreigner who has filed a TM28 will not be fined for the landlord failing to uphold their responsibility because the foreigner has informed us,” he repeated.

“But if a landlord is intentionally slow or delays in filing a TM30, they will be charged by Immigration police,” he said.

In defining “slow”, Col Nareuwat explained that officers will allow for “reasonable” delays, such as the Section 38 app launched by the Immigration Bureau expressly for filing TM30 reports online failing to work or if the foreigner returns to the registered address during a period when the Immigration office is closed.

“The law is very clear in that it says the reporting must be done within 24 hours, but as long as the landlord – Thai or foreign – has made an attempt to file the report and is not intentionally ignoring their responsibility, we will consider their explanation,” he said.

Col Nareuwat urged any landlords (for TM30) or foreigners (for TM28) who find themselves unable to file the report within the time frame permitted to take steps to prove the attempt to file the report.

“If the Section 38 app is not working, then take a screenshot so we can see it. But please make an effort after that to file your report as soon as possible after that,” he said.

“As long as the person is making a genuine effort to file the report, they won’t be fined. We just want them to do their part.

“If there is a genuine reason why the report could not be filed in the appropriate time, and the person can show us, then they can come to the Immigration Office at the next available opportunity. That’s fine,” he added.

https://www.thephuketnews.com/right-on- ... -72693.php

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Dodger » Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:27 pm

Khaosod English News wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:32 pm
Immigration Says TM30 Fix Underway, Pleads for Understanding
Everyone already knew who was responsible for the TM30 (landlords), but the requirements for a foreigner to do the TM28 reporting every time they are away from their address for 24 hours is the real issue and still needs to be clarified, and I'm not holding my breath.

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:31 pm

Dodger wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 7:27 pm
the requirements for a foreigner to do the TM28 reporting every time they are away from their address for 24 hours is the real issue and still needs to be clarified
Great. Just what we need - even more confusion. My take on this is if, for example, I go from Pattaya to Bangkok, stay overnight at a hotel, and the hotel takes care of the TM30, now if I return home the next day, I'm supposed to go to immigration and do a TM28?

If that is correct, this is the first I've ever heard of that. I've made overnight trips to Bangkok dozens of times, sometimes staying even longer than just one day. I've also gone to other provinces, sometimes multiple provinces during the same trip, and have been away for days at a time. I have never gone to immigration to fill out a TM28 upon return. Immigration has never questioned me about it. I have no intention of starting now.

This whole brouhaha with immigration gets more absurd by the day. First it's the confusion over 800,000 baht or 65,000 baht per month for the retirement visa. Then changes are made to the 800,000 baht requirement so that the money is virtually untouchable for 5 months - and after it's touchable again, now you can't let the bank account fall below 400,000 baht.

Now it's this TM30 nonsense and apparently this article is saying we can add the TM28 to the nonsense list.

If any of this was actually accomplishing something, fine. But the only thing I'm seeing accomplished is face saving attempts, all of which fail, by the very same people who inflicted all this on us, for no good reason, in the first place. I believe they realize how ridiculous this is, but instead of admitting it and getting rid of these requirements, they just keep trying to justify them.

Maybe that idea of issuing tracking bracelets to farang wasn't such a bad idea after all, compared to this nonsense. It would certainly save a lot of confusion and asinine trips to immigration to fill out paperwork that nobody will ever look at anyway.

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:22 pm

Now I'd like to take a look at the logic, or lack thereof, of this. Suppose some foreigner is in Thailand to commit crimes. Suppose that foreigner is staying in Pattaya, but he has an accomplice in Bangkok. He goes and stays with that accomplice. Does immigration really think they are going to file a TM30?

And who says the foreigner needs to leave Pattaya at all to commit his crimes? How is any paperwork he may have submitted going to prevent him from committing the crime?

Suppose he goes to Bangkok and really does submit an honest TM30? Once he does, what happens to it besides simply getting filed away?

Then that suggestion ceejay made about moving around to different houses and condos and overwhelming immigration with the paperwork (see: https://www.gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic ... =60#p96155 ) - why even bother actually moving around? All anyone needs to do is just say they did. How would immigration know you never really did? And if you really did, how does that help immigration track down criminals?

This whole thing is some of the most utter nonsense I've ever seen. Where's that "I Don't Get It" list of mine . . . ?

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by ISAC69 » Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:59 am

I assume it's s cunning plan of the Thai authorities do reduce the number of expats living in Thailand , I suppose we are not welcome anymore and to whom is seeking for retirement in Asia it's time to find other destinations.

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Up2u » Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:28 am

ISAC69 wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 3:59 am
I assume it's s cunning plan of the Thai authorities do reduce the number of expats living in Thailand , I suppose we are not welcome anymore and to whom is seeking for retirement in Asia it's time to find other destinations.
bs

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Dodger » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:08 am

Gaybutton wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:31 pm
Great. Just what we need - even more confusion.
I believe the escalation of terrorist attacks (globally), as well as the investigation involving Interpol and other foreign intelligence agencies following the Erawan Shrine incident in 2015, caused Thailand to lost face in a big way due to the fact that many (if not all) of the hotel guests lodging at the hotels involved in the investigation did not have addresses that could be traced to immigration records. In-other-words, the hotels were simply not providing TM30 reports for their guests, nor was there evidence that the laws regarding TM30 were being monitored or enforced by Immigration effectively, which led us to where we are today.

To make matters worse, the 1979 version of Article 37 as it pertains to the use of TM28, has not been revised to align with changes in Thailand's demographics over the past 40 years which has everyone (Immigration and Expats) confusing themselves over interpretations. We're looking to them for answers, when they don't have the answers themselves.

TM30 (Hotel Form)
According to Thai law, and foreign legal experts, the TM30 Form is the hotels/landlords responsibility to complete when a foreigner is residing on their premises. There is no legal requirement for a foreigner to ever have to touch a TM30 Form. The rumors going around that immigration can somehow hold a foreigner accountable in the event that a hotel/landlord failed to complete the TM30 reporting the foreigners address, are totally unfounded and not supported by Thai law.

TM28 (Farang Report)
The primary intent of the TM28 Form is to provide a foreigner with a form to use to report a change in their address so immigration records can stay current, as well as provide a tracking mechanism, if needed. Where things got all screwed up is when someone in 1979 added a sentence in the Immigration Act (Article 37) stating that a foreigner must also complete a TM28 Form when he leaves the province where he resides for periods exceeding 24 hours. This of course was a major mistake. Foreigners who reside in Thailand would simply never comply with this ridiculous provision, nor do the authorities in immigration have the staff or capabilities to come anywhere close to monitoring or enforcing it. In my opinion, this is why the TM28 has been sitting on an ice cold rock for the past 40 years.

As I've mentioned twice already in this thread, I will only be completing a TM28 if I were to travel outside of Thailand, or, in the event I were to sell my condo and move to a new address. I don't see this as any great burden, and believe it meets the intent of the law.

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton » Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:48 am

Dodger wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:08 am
I don't see this as any great burden, and believe it meets the intent of the law.
Yes, but that's not the problem. The problem is what immigration believes meets the intent of the law.

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Dodger » Sun Sep 01, 2019 12:45 pm

Gaybutton wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:48 am
Dodger wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 10:08 am
I don't see this as any great burden, and believe it meets the intent of the law.
Yes, but that's not the problem. The problem is what immigration believes meets the intent of the law.
Unfortunately, as we all know, this is a reality of Thailand which will never change.

That only leaves us with one logical option, and that's to follow the intent of these laws the best we can. We are only visitors here and this is a Thai matter, and It's up to them to find solutions to THEIR OWN PROBLEMS. If a farang gets fined because of an immigration clerk's interpretation (or mis-interpretation) of TM28, so be it. The farang pays the fine and continues on with life, but for Immigration, THEIR PROBLEM is still alive and will continue causing them bottlenecks and chaos until resolved.

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Re: Be sure your TM30 is filed with Thai Immigration

Post by Gaybutton » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:54 pm

Gaybutton wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 4:32 pm
The following is only a partial article coming from the Khaosod English News. Unfortunately the Khaosod News web site is down at the moment
Now Khaosod English is back online and the full article is available. It's a long one, with photos, graphics, and a video, so I'm not going to re-print it here.

If you wish to view the full article, see: http://www.khaosodenglish.com/news/crim ... rstanding/

If you wish to see or download the TM30 form, see: http://www.immigrationbangkok.com/files ... s/tm30.pdf

If you wish to see or download the TM28 form, see: http://www.immigrationbangkok.com/files ... s/tm28.pdf

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