Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

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fountainhall
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#11 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by fountainhall » Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:38 am

I utterly detest the barbarity of stoning anyone to death for any reason. As has been said, this ghastly punishment was far from uncommon in early Jewish and in pre- and immediate post-Christian times. From what I read, by the early Middle Ages the practice had all but died out. Even though stoning to death appears in the Haddith, the alleged sayings of Mohammed and incorporated into Shariah law, historically it was rarely if ever practiced as a means of punishment until the late 20th century and the rise of radical islam.

Like parts of the New Testament, the first of these hundreds of thousands of Haddith were written down only two hundred years after Mohammed's death. And as with what is written in the New Testament, how true or otherwise they may be is a matter of speculation. Just as Islam split into Sunni, Shi'a and other much smaller sects, so there are different interpretations of the Haddith. As regards homosexual acts, though, all seem to agree. Sharia Law states that this barbaric punishment can only be carried out under certain specific conditions - the "culprit" must be or have been married to a woman, be a free man, a Muslim, must have acted of his own free will and there be four eyewitnesses to attest to the fact of penetration. Presumably non-penetrative sex does not fall under these guidelines.

Whilst that may come as some comfort to gay men who have never been married to a woman, it is cold comfort as the punishment for those who do not meet the Islamic criteria can look forward to a number of lashings - in public!

It is worth noting, I think, that in post-invasion Iraq where Bush Jnr, and his neo-con Christian fundamentalists all believed western-style democracy and values would immediately take hold, in 2012 at least 14 teenage Muslim boys were stoned to death as part of a Shi'ite campaign against western-style emo fashion. As far as is known, none was married and none had been involved in homosexual acts.

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#12 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by Jun » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:11 am

fountainhall wrote:
Tue Apr 09, 2019 10:38 am
Sharia Law states that this barbaric punishment can only be carried out under certain specific conditions - the "culprit" must be or have been married to a woman, be a free man, a Muslim, must have acted of his own free will and there be four eyewitnesses to attest to the fact of penetration.
Even with the adventurous and open minded people here, how many of us have had 4 witnesses for the penetration part ? Might make an interesting board poll. Even at the sauna, most people find a cabin for that part. Admittedly, that is not everyone.

As for the stoning, well it remains despicable. Also, if these rules were written in 200 years after the death of the prophet, then there should be nothing stopping a few moderates taking control and modernizing some of the rules. If they have any moderates.

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#13 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by Captain Kirk » Fri Apr 12, 2019 5:55 am

You can make up any old nonsense from these religious tomes to suit whatever you want to believe. It's all bollocks at the end of the day. Always fascinates me that folk I'd otherwise suggest are more intelligent than myself actually still believe in all this rubbish.

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#14 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by fountainhall » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:59 am

I don't disagree with any of the above. I do understand a vast number of people on our planet need some form of belief in a higher being - whatever that may be. In another thread about the first photo of a black hole in space, I made the point that the entire vastness of space and what goes on there is totally beyond me. I'd love to know about the Big Bang. I simply cannot comprehend how one moment there is a nothing -= not even a spec of dust, not even a cubic milliimeter of empty space. And the next there is some sort of Bang whereafter almost immediately there is created from seeming nothing a monstrously large mass of space expanding outwards at an unimaginable rate. And it is still expanding, we are told.

I am happy in my lack of understanding. Others need the comfort of a belief that someone/something/a higher being is behind or controlling such events. If that is what they want, I do not think I have a right to contradict them. What gets me is that all organised religions were founded millennia ago when the world was a hugely different place. The Zoroastrians were limited to what was going on in Persia. Judaism and Christianity to a tiny part of today's Middle East. Islam to a slightly larger area to the south west. All seem to have been founded to counter specific social conditions and injustices. Fine. But what is their specific relevance in today's massively different world? Humanity needs a set of basic rules if we are going to coexist? But why are those laid down by those religions back in the depths of history immutable, the more so when it appears there is no certainty of the authenticity of many of those rules? Times change. We should change too.

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#15 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by Gaybutton » Fri Apr 12, 2019 10:36 am

fountainhall wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:59 am
Humanity needs a set of basic rules if we are going to coexist
That's one thing I doubt will ever happen. This religion bullshit has been in existence for too many thousands of years and I see no signs of it ever going away.

Religion won't go away. We're the ones going away. I believe humans will sooner or later become extinct. And we don't need a comet, asteroid, or any other natural phenomena for that to happen. We're already doing a fine job of doing it to ourselves and we started down that path a long time ago.

Who knows? Maybe it will turn out that 'Planet of the Apes' isn't such science fiction after all - that is if we don't climate change and pollute them into extinction too.

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#16 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by Jun » Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:12 pm

fountainhall wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:59 am
I am happy in my lack of understanding.
Basic physics is very practical and useful, such as what they used to teach at O-level and some of the A-level work.
However, I am not sure how much benefit there is to be gained from understanding quantum physics. To some extent, it shares something in common with religion, in that the people who make a living from it need to carry on promoting their beliefs/hypotheses to sustain their jobs.
So they come up with a theory, then decide another particle is needed to make the theory work. Then persuade governments to chip in a fortune for an accelerator to find the particle. Then they need to find something else to justify the next round of investments. I'm not sure what use it is.

As for the expansion of the universe, well we're never going to reach the edges of it, so I'm not sure what use there is in learning about what goes on at the fringes.
Useful space technology amounts to all the satellites for weather, other observation and communications. We still don't have global plane tracking systems that know where a plane goes down, so much easy & practical work remains to be done.

I also don't think we need quantum physics to wean people off the worst parts of religious systems created 1500 or 2000 years ago. Thankfully, the christian religion is being increasingly marginalized in Europe.
The next steps might be to ensure no other religions take over in our continent and to figure out how to encourage moderate interpretations of religion elsewhere in the world.
Whilst the latter part proves too difficult, I travel mainly in countries that are lapsing christian or Buddhist and have so far only been to the 2 most moderate Islamic states (Malaysia and Turkey).

Getting back to Brunei, since we're not going to get my preferred solution of stoning their leader, supporting the boycott of Brunei owned businesses is one thing we can do and promote.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-04-05/ ... b/10977328

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#17 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by fountainhall » Fri Apr 12, 2019 9:20 pm

Jun wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:12 pm
I travel mainly in countries that are lapsing christian or Buddhist and have so far only been to the 2 most moderate Islamic states (Malaysia and Turkey).
In addition to Malaysia and Turkey, I've been to Indonesia (and not just Bali), Qatar, Jordan and Iran. Jordan and Indonesia (when I was there) were in the moderate camp. I enjoyed Jordan but not Indonesia. Perhaps surprisingly, I loved Qatar and Iran. In both, the apps were quite busy. In Qatar it was mostly young Asians who were working there and who said there would be no problem as I was in a major hotel. But sex was no priority and I would not have been prepared to take a risk.

Iran 18 months ago was a hugely enjoyable trip. My young guide was a ladies man and met a hooker in every city. He told me that everything was possible in Iran provided it was done in private. Many of the guys seemed extremely attractive and he said there were lots of gays in Iran. I noticed some Iranians on the apps in every city and town apart from Tehran. The one definite no-no was alcohol and restaurants only served juices, waters, alcohol-free beer (yuk!) and Coca Cola (so much for sanctions)! Yet in Shiraz he brought me in a carrot juice bottle filled with a passable red wine his father makes.

Since I arrived during the major holiday of Shura, all restaurants and cafes were closed. But even then, the owners had set up tables outside and everyone was offered free tea, coffee, snacks and even meals. As a western foreigner I expected a degree of hostility during my two weeks in the country. Not a bit of it. Everyone smiled, a few people chatted. Even a young mullah I was introduced to in the holy city of Qom was extremely warm and pleasant.

Thinking about those trips to Muslim countries, I realised I have felt the Christian religion more ingrained and more hostile in parts of the mid-USA.

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#18 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by gera » Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:49 pm

Jun wrote:
Fri Apr 12, 2019 3:12 pm

Basic physics is very practical and useful, such as what they used to teach at O-level and some of the A-level work.
However, I am not sure how much benefit there is to be gained from understanding quantum physics.
This is the most bizarre post I have seen for a while. If you do not know something, you should have a humility not to pass (totally ignorant) judgement.

Quote from Wikipedia:
Important applications of quantum theory include quantum chemistry, quantum optics, quantum computing, superconducting magnets, light-emitting diodes, and the laser, the transistor and semiconductors such as the microprocessor, medical and research imaging such as magnetic resonance imaging and electron microscopy.
Quantum mechanics - Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

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#19 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by Jun » Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:49 am

gera wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:49 pm
This is the most bizzare post I have seen for a while.
Possibly one word missing, as what I meant to write is I don't see what benefit is gained from the advanced quantum physics, such as looking for the Higgs Boson & building bloody great Hadron colliders, to go into ever more depth.

Superconducting magnets, LEDs, lasers and transistors were all invented based on the very basic theory, like photons, electrons and neutrons, which were known about years ago and have been taught in basic school physics lessons.

I haven't seen any credible evidence of the benefits of the work that goes on at CERN, for example.

Also studying the outer limits of the universe appears to be one of the less beneficial areas of science.
Something like figuring out how to track and take out asteroids seems like more of a priority to me. Or methods to mitigate the effects of global warming, which might just be more non-linear than we expect.

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#20 Re: Brunei to Stone to Death Gays

Post by Gaybutton » Sun Apr 14, 2019 7:26 am

Sorry gents, but I really don't want a topic about Gays stoned to death in Brunei morphing into a debate about quantum physics. Back to the topic, please.

As always, if you wish to debate about quantum physics, please start a new topic.

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