The USA, Immigration, Colonialism - Continuing the Debate

[Gaybutton]

I'll probably get in trouble with some of you on this one, but my opinion is actually similar to Trump's. The USA took in European immigrants by the thousands over 100 years ago via New York's Ellis Island. They were admitted to the USA legally in accordance with the laws of the time.

I have very little sympathy for people who more recently got into the USA illegally and are living there illegally. If they entered illegally, then no matter how long they've lived there, they do not and never did have the right to be there.

Whether deportation is the answer, I don't know. I don't want to see these people deported or imprisoned, but on the other hand, if they are given a "pathway to citizenship," I don't like the precedent that sets. To me, that sends a message that if you can somehow make it into the USA illegally and manage to stay there long enough, now the USA will provide a way for you to remain. I think that's wrong.

If there are other countries that permit people who are there illegally, but provide them a means of staying if they are caught or grant some some sort of blanket amnesty that allows them to stay, I don't know which countries those are.

[firecat69]

I have to take them one at a time here because I am not as good on the computer as Fountainhall.
The entire EU managed to make more new citizens than the USA in 2017 but not by much and 19% of those citizens were in fact from other EU countries , not exactly a small amount . In fact if you take out the other EU countries , once again the the USA created more citizens than the entire EU. Which is pretty much what I said.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistic ... statistics

[firecat69]

Please name another country that continues to accept immigrants and they become citizens rather than residents . .

Firecat69,

Have you never heard of the countries of Canada, Australia, and New Zealand?

They do indeed accept many immigrants that can become citizens. And these countries probably have a higher percentage of citizens that were born outside the country than does the U.S.

Lets start with Australia and maybe we will both learn something. You will note that a fair % of new citizens are from English speaking countries. And later I'll try to post an article that says Australia is likely to drastically reduce the number accepted.

https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/research ... statistics

Then we move to New Zealand. A small country of 5 million people and as you would expect a small number of new citizenships given out . However once again a significant % were from English Speaking Countries .

https://www.dia.govt.nz/diawebsite.nsf/ ... enDocument

Now for Canada

Canada has been a very welcoming country because of necessity. An aging population requires lot of new younger citizens. However you will note a rather precipitous decline in those accepted.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/555 ... 2010-2015/

[firecat69]

I'll probably get in trouble with some of you on this one

It's so hard to find anyone to agree with. ( HeHe)

Your arguments have merit except for the fact that none of those people would be in the USA if Companies did not hire them . Who do you think makes up the majority of kitchen staff in restaurants, maids in Hotels , grass cutters at Trumps golf courses and thousands of gated communities in the US. Who do you think is on the roofs in horrible heat for new construction in Nevada, Florida etc. Who do you picks the crops in the fields that feed both the USA and a good part of the rest of the world. WHO DO YOU THINK DOES THE JOBS THAT AMERICANS DO NOT WANT?

If you could wave a magic wand and eliminate all illegal residents from the USA, the economy would plummet and the way of life would change overnight for many of the people who complain the most.

Does anyone think it is not easy to stop the illegal residents? Put company owners like Trump and Presidents of Major companies in jail if they are found to hire undocumented workers. For years we have had EVerify. It is not perfect but it would be able to catch a great % of illegal residents seeking work.
I'd be willing to bet that most of Trumps Cabinet member have illegals working for them as do many of high minded members of Congress.
Does anyone actually forget that illegals built Trump Tower and the did not get paid what they were promised. The hypocrisy in my country is rampant especially among the well off.

Of course that is never going to happen because we need those illegal immigrants to keep the economy going. In another post Canada is an example of a country admitting that they need new new citizens due to an aging population. That is why as a % new citizens compared to population has been so high.

Time for the USA to do the same!!!

[Gaybutton]

Who do you think makes up the majority of kitchen staff in restaurants, maids in Hotels , grass cutters at Trumps golf courses and thousands of gated communities in the US.

I'm well aware of that, but none of it negates the fact they are there illegally. If the USA made it legal for them to be there provided they are willing to take those low pay, menial jobs, problem solved, but the USA hasn't done that. Therefore they have no right to be there.

Despite the jobs they are willing to take and how it helps the economy, the fact they are there illegally doesn't mean the answer is to just look the other way.

If the American economy would collapse without people entering illegally, isn't there something wrong with that?

Again, I don't know what the answer is, but the way things currently work - that ain't it . . .

[firecat69]

I told what the answer is but it is only going forward. EVerify and put people who hire in jail if they do not use it. There really is nothing to be done with the millions who are already here accept to give them some sort of interim status and a way to gain citizenship.

We are not going to deport millions of illegals . First of all we'd have to have millions to do it . Where would they come from ?

[fountainhall]

The entire EU managed to make more new citizens than the USA in 2017 but not by much and 19% of those citizens were in fact from other EU countries , not exactly a small amount . In fact if you take out the other EU countries , once again the the USA created more citizens than the entire EU.

I fail to understand exactly the reason for stating immigration/naturalisation figures from other countries. Yes, the USA takes a lot. That is US policy. In terms of immigration and nationalisation, other countries are rarely influenced by US Policy.

You stated the following -

Please name another country that continues to accept immigrants and they become citizens rather than residents . In other words they become Americans. 653,000 last year . Yes there are other countries where people become residents but they never become citizens .

Your quote was totally wrong, as werner99 and I pointed out. The number of immigrants was never at issue other than your saying the USA takes more immigrants than other countries. I agreed with this. Yet you now try to skew your argument by going off at a tangent and saying it is as important to look in more detail at the original nationality of immigrants to various countries. What on earth does it matter if one country in the EU takes in and makes a citizen someone who is a citizen of another EU country or Turkey or China? It makes not one hoot of difference! An immigrant is an immigrant and a citizen is a citizen.

What does it matter how many immigrants in Australia, New Zealand and Canada are native English speakers and become naturalised citizens? Not a hoot! The only fact at issue is that you denied other countries accept immigrants as citizens - and these countries in fact do!

later I'll try to post an article that says Australia is likely to drastically reduce the number accepted.

What might happen in the future is utterly meaningless in the context of this discussion - unless, that is, you also take into account the future of US policy. And since none of us can presently know what that will be, frankly I would save yourself all that trouble.

Canada has been a very welcoming country because of necessity. An aging population requires lot of new younger citizens. However you will note a rather precipitous decline in those accepted.

So now you introduce another new issue which has absolutely nothing to do with the original discussion and it is again immaterial here!

Maybe you should start a new thread on the details of world Immigration policy. It might prove quite interesting and enlightening.

[Gaybutton]

EVerify and put people who hire in jail if they do not use it.

I like that idea, especially the part about putting people who don't use it in jail, starting with one Donald J. Trump.

[firecat69]

What does it matter how many immigrants in Australia, New Zealand and Canada are native English speakers and become naturalised citizens? Not a hoot! The only fact at issue is that you denied other countries accept immigrants as citizens - and these countries in fact do!

As usual you misquote anybody. I never said no other country admits immigrants and gives them citizenship. Possibly you should read more carefully!

I said please name other countries which Werner did and now the discussion is what kind of immigrants are they admitting as well as the volume.

Do you really not understand that Australia and New Zealand are offering citizenship to a great degree to people of means . They have money and they are welcome to bring their money to a new country and become citizens? First in order to get long term visa they must prove they have means , sort of like you have to do in Thailand if you want to retire there. They are not taking indigent people . If you don't see the difference then it is a complete waste of time arguing with you!

The USA has been taking millions of immigrants for hundreds of years and turning them into citizens . There is no other country that comes close to that and that is just a fact!

[Jun]

Just for reference, here is a list of countries with figures for percent of population born abroad.
Countries with competitive taxation policy are quite high on the list, which is fine by me.

I still see absolutely not benefit in rampant uncontrolled immigration. In my view, it should be controlled, so that countries only let in skilled people and those from cultures that tend to integrate properly.
Also, it's slightly unfair to compare sparsely populated countries like Canada, Australia & New Zealand with densely populated countries.

Country Of total population (%)
  Vatican City 100
 United Arab Emirates 83.7
 Qatar 73.8
 American Samoa 71.2
 Kuwait 70
 Caribbean Netherlands 65.9
 Monaco 64.2
 Falkland Islands 62.1
 Sint Maarten 59.7
 United States Virgin Islands 59.3
 Macau 58.8
 Andorra 56.9
 Bahrain 54.7
 Isle of Man 52
GuernseyJerseyChannel Islands 51
 Northern Mariana Islands 49.9
 Guam 49.6
 Brunei 49.3
 Anguilla 45.6
 Luxembourg 43.3
 French Guiana 43.3
 Singapore 42.9
 Jordan 40.2
 Hong Kong 38.9
 Niue 37.1
 Aruba 34.9
 Australia 33.3
 Lebanon 33.3
 Liechtenstein 33.1
 Gibraltar 33
 Mayotte 32.9
 British Virgin Islands 32.3
 Antigua and Barbuda 31.9
 Saudi Arabia 31.4
 Oman 30.6
 Bermuda 29.1
  Switzerland 28.9
 Palau 27.8
 Israel 26.5
 Montserrat 25.9
 Tokelau 25.4
 New Zealand 25.1
 New Caledonia 24.8
 Turks and Caicos Islands 24.8
 Maldives 24.4
 Gabon 23.6
 Curacao 23.2
Canada 21.9
 Kazakhstan 21.1
 Nauru 21.1
 Guadeloupe 20.8
 Wallis and Futuna 20.5
 Sweden 18.5
 Cyprus 18.2
 Croatia 17.6
 Saint Pierre and Miquelon 17.1
 Estonia 16.4
 Bahamas 16.3
 Ireland 15.9
 Reunion 15.6
 San Marino 15.4
 Cook Islands 15.4
 Austria 15.2
 Martinique 15
 Belize 15
 Germany 14.9
 United States 14.3
 Saint Helena 14.3
 Djibouti 14.2
 Norway 13.8
 Latvia 13.8
 United Kingdom 13.2
 Seychelles 13
 Belgium 12.9
 Spain 12.8
 French Polynesia 12.8
 Libya 12.2
 Ivory Coast 12
 Belarus 11.6
 Ukraine 11.4
 Slovenia 11.3
 Barbados 11.3
 Moldova 11.2
 France 11.1
 Netherlands 11.1
 Greece 11.1
 Iceland 10.7
 Grenada 10.7
 Armenia 10.6
 Saint Kitts and Nevis 10.5
 Greenland 10.4
 Republic of Congo 9.7
 Saint Vincent and the Grenadines 9.4
 Denmark 9
 Dominica 8.9
 The Gambia 8.8
 Costa Rica 8.7
 Italy 8.3
 Malaysia 8.3
 Montenegro 8.2
 Malta 8
 Russia 7.7
 Portugal 7.5
 Suriname 7.5
 Faroe Islands 7.4
 Botswana 7.2
 Bhutan 6.7
 Saint Lucia 6.7
 Macedonia 6.6
 Syria 6.4
 South Africa 6
 Palestine 5.9
 Thailand 5.6
 Serbia 5.6
 South Sudan 5.6
 Chile 5.5
 Finland 5.4
 Liberia 5.3
 Lithuania 4.9
 Tonga 4.8
 Hungary 4.7
 Panama 4.7
 Argentina 4.6
 Kyrgyzstan 4.6
 Uzbekistan 4.4
 Georgia 4.4
 Turkmenistan 4.3
 Burkina Faso 4.1
 Czech Republic 4
 Venezuela 3.9
 Dominican Republic 3.9
 Turkey 3.8
 Rwanda 3.8
 Mauritius 3.6
   Nepal 3.5
 Iran 3.4
 Chad 3.4
 Azerbaijan 3.4
 Tajikistan 3.4
World 3.3
 Slovakia 3.3
 Sao Tome and Principe 3.3
 Guinea 3.2
 Marshall Islands 3.2
 Albania 3.1
 Togo 3
 Cape Verde 3
 Samoa 3
 South Korea 2.9
 Central African Republic 2.9
 Paraguay 2.8
 Zimbabwe 2.6
 Kiribati 2.6
 Micronesia 2.6
 Burundi 2.5
 Fiji 2.5
 Trinidad and Tobago 2.4
 Benin 2.3
 Mauritania 2.3
 Uruguay 2.3
 Pakistan 2.2
 Kenya 2.2
 Ecuador 2.2
 Namibia 2.2
 Swaziland 2
 Japan 1.9
 Guyana 1.7
 Comoros 1.7
 Poland 1.6
 Sierra Leone 1.6
 Tuvalu 1.6
 Sri Lanka 1.5
 Senegal 1.5
 Uganda 1.4
 Ghana 1.4
 Bolivia 1.4
 Solomon Islands 1.4
 Yemen 1.3
 Cameroon 1.3
 Malawi 1.3
 Mali 1.3
 Jamaica 1.3
 Equatorial Guinea 1.3
 Vanuatu 1.3
 Sudan 1.2
 Bulgaria 1.2
 Guinea-Bissau 1.1
 Timor-Leste 1
 Bangladesh 0.9
 Mexico 0.9
 Brazil 0.9
 Romania 0.9
 Western Sahara 0.9
 Ethiopia 0.8
 Mozambique 0.8
 Nigeria 0.7
 Democratic Republic of Congo 0.7
 Algeria 0.7
 Niger 0.7
 Zambia 0.7
 Nicaragua 0.7
 Tanzania 0.6
 El Salvador 0.6
 Bosnia and Herzegovina 0.6
 Mongolia 0.6
 Cambodia 0.5
 Guatemala 0.5
 India 0.4
 Egypt 0.4
 Angola 0.4
 Haiti 0.4
 Honduras 0.4
 Papua New Guinea 0.4
 Colombia 0.3
 Afghanistan 0.3
 Peru 0.3
 Iraq 0.3
 Tunisia 0.3
 Laos 0.3
 Philippines 0.23
 Myanmar 0.2
 Morocco 0.2
 North Korea 0.2
 Somalia 0.2
 Eritrea 0.2
 China 0.1
 Indonesia 0.1
 Vietnam 0.1
 Madagascar 0.1
 Cuba 0.1
 Lesotho 0.1