Problem coming for retirement visa?

[Gaybutton]

[align=]In the August 1 edition of the Bangkok Post there is a long article about the Thai police trying to clean out criminal foreign motorcycle gangs in Thailand.

https://www.bangkokpost.com/thailand/ge ... hfm7CeQjTY

Part of the article has special significance for retirement visa holders and could mean a major change is coming regarding the financial requirement. And if it happens, it will not be in our favor. Here is that portion of the article:
____________________________________________________________

Amending the law

Pol Gen Surachate said the lack of strict law enforcement and corrupt officials are other reasons the gang members chose to base themselves in Thailand.

He cited the Immigration Act as an example. He said the 1979 law is outdated and needs to be amended.

For example, re­quirements for obtaining a retirement visa are easy, he said, adding the law requires any foreigner aged at least 50 years old to have at least 800,000 baht in their bank account or an income certificate with a monthly salary not less than 65,000 baht. That requirement is too low and does not help screen quality applicants.

A lack of inspection of bank statements by Immigration Bureau (IB) officers also leaves room for some foreigners to window-dress their bank accounts.

Some even get help from visa agencies or IB officers, such as the case in which 107 immigration officers helped more than 3,000 Chinese nationals involved in "grey" businesses obtain visas in February, he said.

Stronger visa criteria could help prevent gang members or those on international criminal blacklists from entering the country.

"When mafia gangs still exist, foreigners do not feel safe. They may not want to travel to Pattaya or invest in the Eastern Seaboard. This causes huge damage to the country," he added.
______________________________________________________

The article says "Big Joke" feels the requirement is too low. It does not make clear just what is too low. Is he talking about the 65000 per month income requirement? Is he talking about the 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account requirement? Is e talking about both? Would such changes be meant for new applicants for the retirement visa or would the changes be grandfathered in and affect all of us retirees?

No matter which it is, he has a talent for getting what he wants. But I wish we knew the amounts he wants.

We definitely need to keep an eye on this one.

[2lz2p]

Personally, I am surprised it hasn't been raised already as it has not changed since 1998. BUT, in the past, each time it was raised, it applied only to new applicants for retirement extensions. Those already here and doing annual renewals were "grand fathered" in and so long as they continue to do annual extensions, their financial requirements remained the same. The following is from the latest Police Order re extensions of stay under paragraph 2.22 "In case of retirement":

(6) An alien who entered the Kingdom before October 21, 1998 and has been
consecutively permitted to stay in the Kingdom for retirement shall be subject to the following
criteria:
(a) Must be 60 years of age or over and have an annual fixed income with fluids
maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less than Baht 200,000 or have
a monthly income of no less than Baht 20,000
(b) If less than 60 years of age but not less than 55 years of age, must have an annual
fixed income with funds maintained in a bank account for the past three months of no less
than Baht 500,000 or have a monthly income of no less than Baht 50,000

So, hopefully, they will continue that policy for those that are already here and have done so consecutively.

[Gaybutton]

So, hopefully, they will continue that policy for those that are already here and have done so consecutively.

If they raise the 800,000 baht requirement, I will probably switch to the proof-of-monthly income requirement. I don't like the 800,000 baht in the bank requirement, but I have been doing my visa that way anyhow, mainly because so far I have had no need to dip into it.

If they raise the 65,000 baht per month to a higher figure, I doubt it would go so high that I can't do it, so I would likely switch over to that method rather than tie up even more money forced to just sit there in a Thai bank account.

We'll see what happens, if it happens at all, and how it affects us expats and those who wish to become expats.

[Dodger]

Personally, I am surprised it hasn't been raised already as it has not changed since 1998. BUT, in the past, each time it was raised, it applied only to new applicants for retirement extensions. Those already here and doing annual renewals were "grand fathered" in and so long as they continue to do annual extensions, their financial requirements remained the same.

So, hopefully, they will continue that policy for those that are already here and have done so consecutively.

Excellent point. They've always "grandfathered" and to not do so would result in total mayhem and cost them money in the process.

It's not the Immigration Laws that need to be improved to stop gang members from entering Thailand - it's the enforcement of those Laws.

It was mentioned on another similar topic that the use of agents to secure long-term visas may be on thin ice.

If retirement visas are handed out like popcorn by agents (bypassing Immigration requirements/laws) it's now wonder that there's so many weaknesses and loopholes in the system. In reality, the way it works now, a criminal can enter Thailand and then extend his visa for a year with nothing more than 14,000 THB to pay the agent. They may not have a dime in their pockets or a bank account in their name - and still be roaming the streets. Good luck finding them.

I guess Big Joke had the option of either saying; a) we need to raise the requirements, or b) we need to start enforcing our laws and quit taking payoffs. For some reason I'm not surprised he chose option (a).

[Jun]

So corrupt & criminal immigration officials facilitate the immigration of corrupt & criminal mafia types ? Who would have thought it ?

I guess Big Joke had the option of either saying; a) we need to raise the requirements, or b) we need to start enforcing our laws and quit taking payoffs. For some reason I'm not surprised he chose option (a).

I suppose (a) also leads to bigger bribes.

[Gaybutton]

Barry Kenyon has written his thoughts. See: viewtopic.php?p=111056#p111056

This whole thing seems to be about getting rid of foreign criminal gangs. Are these gangs in Thailand on retirement visas? Something just is not gelling, in my opinion.

Meanwhile, those of us expats who have been living many years in Thailand, law abiding, with perfectly clean records, and have done nothing wrong, could easily end up financially punished, possibly forced out if the price of a visa becomes too high and unaffordable, if my interpretation of "Big Joke's" proposal is correct. There are a great many more expats who are law abiding than mafia gangs or other criminals using retirement visas. We are contributing money to Thailand, not stealing it. All we have ever asked has been to simply be treated fairly.

"Big Joke" says the immigration law needs to be upgraded since it has been in place since 1979. My response to that is "So what? If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If keeping 800,000 baht in a Thai bank account isn't enough, then how much is enough? If a provable monthly income of at least 65,000 baht isn't enough, then how much is enough?

Suddenly we're not "high quality" enough? Maybe they ought to take into consideration that there is much more to "high quality" than simply having huge amounts of money. Go after the real criminals, but don't be hurting the rest of us in the process.

[gerefan]

If these criminals are entering Thailand on a retirement visa that means they are either over 55 or over 60.
I thought generally criminals were younger than that?
Or are they lying about their age and getting the visas that way?
If the latter the answer is simple unless somehow they are covering up their age.

[Jun]

If these criminals are entering Thailand on a retirement visa that means they are either over 55 or over 60.
I thought generally criminals were younger than that?

Remember the Hatton Garden Job. You still have time yet, along with some other board members !

It's odd that there's considering the problem with mafia gangs, this Big Joke guy even mentions bribing customs officials as part of the problem, but rather than stop the bribery, the answer is to increase fees for law abiding residents.

If they raise the 800,000 baht requirement, I will probably switch to the proof-of-monthly income requirement.

I reckon having the 800,000 baht in the bank is more predictable and robust. If they increase this by 50%, all a farang has to do is move another 400,000 at a known exchange rate and he's done.

If they increase the 65,000 figure, not only does a farang have to consider this at today's exchange rates, but at whatever unknown exchange rates might apply in the future. So if it were me, I'd want a far bigger safety margin with this method.

[Gaybutton]

I reckon having the 800,000 baht in the bank is more predictable and robust. If they increase this by 50%, all a farang has to do is move another 400,000 at a known exchange rate and he's done.

Congratulations for being so rich that you can just shove it aside and treat it as if it's no problem or big deal, as if 400,000 baht is just a mere pittance. For others, such as me, it would be very difficult, for some impossible, to do.

I think 800,000 already is way too excessive. Now the possibility of raising it rather than reducing it suddenly is there. If they really do that, I hope it will apply only to new applicants, not to people who have been retired for many years in Thailand, have their lives long established here, and have no place to go.

In my case, Thailand is my home. I have complied with everything immigration has ever asked of me for the privilege. It is very late in life to have to lose my home and start over somewhere else, especially when the reason for that happening is no fault of my own and not caused by anything I have done wrong, but because of the actions of criminals.

In any case, I, for one, am not going to worry about it. Just because "Big Joke" brought it up doesn't mean it's going to happen. A good friend long ago gave me a piece of advice: "Don't worry until you have something to worry about." There is nothing to worry about just yet.

[Jun]

My example of 400,000 was selected at random & was not intended to cause offence.

Incidentally, as I'm sure we all realise, the 800,000 is 12.3 months worth of 65,000, which we might as well round off to a year.

If they increased both by the same percentage, within our first 12 months, a hypothetical farang needs to find the same amount of "extra" money.

If we have a 50% increase, obviously farang A who has 800,000 in the bank and a monthly income of 98,000 is better placed to use the income method and farang B who has 1.2 million baht in the bank and a monthly income of 65,000 might be better placed to use the lump sum method.
If exchange rates then deteriorate, farang B still satisfies the lump sum rule, but farang A needs a rethink.

However, farang A at least knows his recurring monthly income of over 65,000 is worth far more than 800,000, based on any NPV calculation.