Major step toward same sex marriage in Thailand

[Gaybutton]

The home visit also often includes the Immigration Officers interviewing neighbors to verify the couple are living together as would be expected for a married couple.

That part bothers me more than other aspects because as I've said, there could be all kinds of reasons why couples are not living together. I understand about wanting to prevent fake marriages, but I hope whether or not the couple is actually living together is not the only criteria for determining if a marriage is genuine.

[Dodger]

That part bothers me more than other aspects because as I've said, there could be all kinds of reasons why couples are not living together. I understand about wanting to prevent fake marriages, but I hope whether or not the couple is actually living together is not the only criteria for determining if a marriage is genuine.

Agree totally.

Besides being a completely ridiculous and ineffective way to determine if a couple is still married - there's also no law that I'm aware of that says that married couples must live together. Not only are the living arrangements between a married couple their own business - there's also the possibility that a married couple has decided to separate because of turbulence in the marriage, although have not gone through with a divorce. Happens all the time.

If a couple gets divorced in Thailand it has to be registered with their local amphur the same way that their marriage was registered. That's all anyone would need to determine a couples legal marital status. Running around peeking in windows and listening to neighbors gossiping is beyond laughable and something I would expect to see in a Flintstone's cartoon.

[bkkguy]

there's also no law that I'm aware of that says that married couples must live together.

and as far as I am aware there is no law that I am aware of that says a retired person must have 800,000 Baht in the bank or equivalent in monthly income

the Immigration Dept requirements for an annual extension of permission to stay, be they reasonable or not, are not an attempt to define the concepts of "marriage" or "retirement", they are simply a list of conditions to be met to obtain an extension based either on retirement or marriage

while there are many issues worth discussing with Immigration Dept regulations (perhaps on another thread?), this is not an issue of marriage equality in Thailand, indeed it appears that falung/thai gay couples will face exactly the same issues as straight couples do in relation to Immigration Dept requirements for a marriage extension, and Dodger has already pointed out, even if married he would continue to do his extensions based on retirement rather than marriage, and I have seen nothing to indicate that this will become a problem for gay couples after marriage equality laws pass when it has not been a problem for straight couples making this same decision up till now

[Gaybutton]

as far as I am aware there is no law that I am aware of that says a retired person must have 800,000 Baht in the bank or equivalent in monthly income

Does that matter? The problem for expats is whatever immigration tells us they require, we either comply or are forced to leave Thailand. I am not aware of any gray areas in between and I am not aware of anything we can effectively do about it.

In other words, law or not, it might as well be. Whatever it is, it's either comply or goodbye . . .

Besides being a completely ridiculous and ineffective way to determine if a couple is still married - there's also no law that I'm aware of that says that married couples must live together.

Again, I hope someone who knows what he's talking about can tell us what happens if the police decide we don't meet the requirements that render our marriage valid. Is our immigration and visa status changed right then and there? Do we get some sort of hearing and if we do, who passes judgment? Does due process fit into the equation anywhere?

I'm not thrilled with the idea that the status of my marriage could be determined by a couple police officers showing up at my door.

[Jun]

... there's also no law that I'm aware of that says that married couples must live together

If I understand the previous arguments correctly, this applies if you use the marriage visa ?

So are you required to live together as a condition of that visa ?

Not a major worry for members here, as I suspect most active board members are old enough to qualify for a retirement visa.

Also, if anyone was found to be not complying with the terms of their marriage visa, surely they would just head down to an agency & pay the fees which include sufficient tea money to get a retirement visa (without having to satisfy all the rules for that visa).
Which could be why we never hear about it.

[Dodger]

... there's also no law that I'm aware of that says that married couples must live together

.......If I understand the previous arguments correctly, this applies if you use the marriage visa ?

No, actually this doesn't apply anywhere.

The marriage requirements for a foreigner who elects to apply for a "Marriage Visa" versus "Retirement Visa" states clearly that home visits may be conducted for the purpose of verifying the validity of the marriage. Nowhere does it state, or even insinuate, that the foreigner and his spouse have to be in the home at the same time.

All this fuss really about nothing.

I'll never forget the story I heard years ago about a farang who married the mother of a boy he was seeing on a temporary basis...took them both back to his home somewhere in Europe...then adopted the boy (who was under 18)...and sent the mother back to the rice farm in Thailand with a sizeable $$bonus$$. Not sure if this was true or not - but it was hot news on the sois for quite a while...

[Gaybutton]

Nowhere does it state, or even insinuate, that the foreigner and his spouse have to be in the home at the same time.

My understanding is not that they have be in the home at the same time, but the inspection has to determine they both live in the same home, regardless of who is at home when the police show up.

I still want to know what happens if the home visit determines the marriage is, for whatever reason, not valid. So far nobody participating on this topic seems to have an answer.

As far as I know, the only reason to suspect the marriage is not valid would be if there is evidence that it's an in-name-only marriage. Ok, if that's what the inspection shows, what happens now? Do the police have to prove it? Does the couple have to prove their marriage is indeed valid after all?

This is all too vague for me.

[Dodger]

My understanding is not that they have be in the home at the same time, but the inspection has to determine they both live in the same home, regardless of who is at home when the police show up.

I think this may be where some of the confusion is coming in.

Nowhere that I can see in the legal requirements for Thai marriages does it state that the purpose of these random visits is to determine if a couple resides in the same home. I'm not sure where you're getting this. It only says that visits may be performed to make sure the couple is still married - and that it's not a fake marriage.

As we all know fake marriages happen for a myriad of reasons. I'm sure the BIB are keen to the myriad of ploys used by foreigners who wish to circumvent the law - and I'm equally sure that they know what questions to ask when conducting these home visits.

My guess as to the reason why nobody can answer your questions related to "what happens next" is because nobody has ever heard of any legally married couple having a problem with this. You would have to access police files to see what happened to those who violated the law.

[Gaybutton]

My guess as to the reason why nobody can answer your questions related to "what happens next" is because nobody has ever heard of any legally married couple having a problem with this. You would have to access police files to see what happened to those who violated the law.

I hope you're guessing right. All I know is what I've read and, speaking of guessing, your guess is as good as mine as to the accuracy and credibility about what I've read and others have read.

This is why, once this becomes law, I urge consulting a good Thai attorney and get real answers, not guesses. I certainly would be doing that before plunging into a marriage.

[DragonMaster]

I just got off the phone with a British friend who has been married for a number of years here on a marriage visa. He and his wife go through the hoops every year. It goes like this;
1 month prior to renewing your marriage visa, you submit a bunch of paperwork about your house etc., if you own one along with a certificate you obtain from Bangkok which verifies your marriage. Once that is filed, Immigration will schedule a home visit and will notify you in advance when they will come, usually 24 hours prior. When they arrive, they take photos of you and your spouse, make smalltalk, and may speak to a neighbor who has known you for some time. They also are checking to see that you are not working illegally while having your marriage visa. It is simple to get a work permit if you are married. Once this visit is completed, your visa extension will be extended if you qualify. Pretty simple as long as you are not trying to scam the system. One of the Immigration officers who came last time told my friend the reason they do these visits, is because of the number of foreigners who come into Thailand, give money to a Thai and get married as a scam. Some years back in the North, many of the foreigners who they caught were running illegal drug operations while taking advantage of the perks offered by the marriage visa. As a result, the powers in Bangkok dictated that closer scrutiny be given to verify compliance with Immigration rules. This information comes from an actual foreigner who lives here and does this every year. He has never had an issue other than the huge amount of paperwork he and his wife have to submit.

GB had asked if the police had to prove anything. The short simple answer to that is NO. Immigration can decide at any time to grant or deny a visa extension whether you like it or not. People have also found out to their surprise that Immigration can deny you entry at airports if they choose for any number of reasons. It’s important to remember that you are not entitled to an extension of permission to stay here, regardless of the type of visa you hold or originally entered the country on. It seems fairly obvious to me that renewing a retirement extension is a much simplier process.