Gay China

Anything and everything about gay life anywhere in the world, especially Asia, other than Thailand.
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gera
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Gay China

Post by gera » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:14 pm

There is no doubt that gay bars in Pattaya are in decline (with possible exception of Jomtien area). A lot of people put a lot of imagination (e.g. ,Dodger) in trying to explain it. However, I do not see any decline in girls bar scene. Meanwhile, on the surface the very same factors mentioned here
(police crack downs, drugs etc) should be the same for both gay and girl bars. I do not have any explanation for this phenomenon. It is undoubtedly true that Chinese visitors are now dominating Pattaya tourist crowd. I would not be surprised if Chinese gays are tracked down in gay bars by undercover Chinese police and that may effect their attendance. But it is a pure speculation.

fountainhall
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Re: Gay China

Post by fountainhall » Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:31 pm

gera wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:14 pm
I would not be surprised if Chinese gays are tracked down in gay bars by undercover Chinese police and that may effect their attendance. But it is a pure speculation.
Evrerything is speculation I reckon. As for Chinese undercover police, I cannot imagine for what reason they should be active in Thailand and targeting gay guys from China. It is not illegal to be gay in China. The main problem for gays in China is social acceptance. The world's largest internet gay dating site is Blued and that is owned and run in China by a former married policeman in China. Not only that. A state-run Chinese company based in the mainland is a Blued investor! Grindr is presently also Chinese owned, although it is for sale because the USA will not accept its being owned by a Chinese gaming corporation.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/27/us-push ... urces.html

gera
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Re: Gay China

Post by gera » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:09 am

fountainhall wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:31 pm
As for Chinese undercover police, I cannot imagine for what reason they should be active in Thailand and targeting gay guys from China.
This post shows that you are not familiar with gay situation in China. Why I am not surprised? The main problem in China is gay discrimination and they are targeted by government. E.g. there was a campaign to eliminate gay content from social networks, banning movies with gay content. I would suggest you name openly gay functioner of Chinese communist party etc. and in connection with the campaign of establishing universal social score in China I would not be surprised at all if the government collect detailed information about sexual orientation of their citizens.

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Re: Gay China

Post by Dimsumbear » Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:39 am

gera wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:14 pm
I would not be surprised if Chinese gays are tracked down in gay bars by undercover Chinese police and that may effect their attendance. But it is a pure speculation.
I think we are going a bit off topic here but my two cents is that while being gay is still not widely celebrated in China, in reality nobody cares unless it’s their son (sadly) or causing up a public scene. Money talks, so yes even a gay dating app can be owned by the most anti-gay ex-bureaucrats if lucrative enough :roll:

fountainhall
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Re: Gay China

Post by fountainhall » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:09 am

gera wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 5:09 am
fountainhall wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 10:31 pm
As for Chinese undercover police, I cannot imagine for what reason they should be active in Thailand and targeting gay guys from China.
This post shows that you are not familiar with gay situation in China. Why I am not surprised? The main problem in China is gay discrimination and they are targeted by government. E.g. there was a campaign to eliminate gay content from social networks, banning movies with gay content. I would suggest you name openly gay functioner of Chinese communist party etc. and in connection with the campaign of establishing universal social score in China I would not be surprised at all if the government collect detailed information about sexual orientation of their citizens.
Unfortunately it is gera who seems to know little about being gay in China and his facts and suppositions are wrong. How often have you visited China, gera? I have - many dozens of times. How often do you chat to gay friends in China? I do with reasonable regularity. Have you been to gay bars in China? I have. Do you have gay friends living there? I do. There is even one couple - an American and his Chinese partner - living in Shanghai and have been together for more than the 25 years I have known them.

Perhaps gera has forgotten the content of this thread - https://gaybuttonthai.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=8978

Are you aware that in several of the main cities there are gay KTV bars where the boys are totally naked and what goes on would be on a par with the goings on at the late Eros bar - only more raunchy! I thought I had written a long post on this but I cannot seem to find it. So I written another and, frankly, what it reveals is eye-popping. Of course like Thailand such establishments exist as a result of payments to the the police. Anyone who used to visit occasional tumblr sites before the nudity ban last December will have seen photos from such KTV bars. Does gera seriously believe that these would be allowed to continue if there was a government campaign against gays. Given that they are found in quite a few cities, the police would not dare - see full details below.

I obviously have to repeat myself. Please tell me one thing. If, as you state, "there was a campaign to eliminate gay content from social networks" how is it possible for the world's largest gay social network site not only to be based in China, not only to be run by a Chinese but also partially funded by a state-controlled Chinese company? How is it that Grindr is run 100% by a Chinese resgistered company?

You are correct that gay content in movies is usually censored. But that is a totally different issue. It is also censored here in Thailand! Did you see "Call Me by Your Name" here? That was censored! As far as naming a "gay functioner" in the Chinese government, what sort of question is that? And what would that prove or disprove? It is wholly irrelevant.

There may indeed be Chinese undercover police here for one reason or another. I have absolutely no idea. But as for Chinese undercover police being based in Thailand with a brief to check on gay Chinese tourists, sorry but that is just laughable.

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Re: Gay China

Post by fountainhall » Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:49 am

Chinese Gay KTV Clubs with Naked Youths

Space, sexuality and power: producing a Gay KTV in China

In my earlier post, I mentioned the KTV bar phenomenon that has appeared in China in recent years. A couple of years ago I wrote a long article on this subject for a now abandoned gay blogsite. I own the copyright of the two articles and I thought I had written a condensed version on this Board. An extensive search this morning seems to suggest that I did not do so. I will therefore do so here so that readers will not have to wade through what is a very long and detailed thesis. The only unfortunate issue is that I cannot illustrate what I write below with photos, since almost all contain images of naked Chinese young men.

I first became interested in the presence of gay KTV gay bars in China when going through a few tumblr sites a couple of years ago. That interest was sparked by the fact that the boys employed by the bars were totally nude and the events pictured involved various forms of activity including mutual blowjobs, masturbation, games – and even the collection of sperm in a glass - although no penetration. I decided to ask my friends in Shanghai about them since there appear to be several such KTV bars in that city. They knew all about them but had never been. So I started to do more research on the internet. Quite by accident, I came across the above article.

This was written in 2016 by an expatriate Chinese named Zhang Hai-lin for his doctoral thesis at the University of Wageningen in The Netherlands. The more I read its 44 pages, the more I realised how much research he had done and the more fascinated I became. The writer is a gay man who had lived in Shanghai for 20 years and had participated in the gay scene there for ten. He tells how he had been influenced partly by changing attitudes to the LGBT agenda in the rest of the world, but more by those in Hong Kong and Taiwan. In explaining the background to these KTVs and what happens within, I use many exact quotes (in blue) from Zhang’s thesis.

There is a huge number of KTV establishments for straight people in many parts of the world, including China. These usually provide a large space, large screens for karaoke, comfortable seating and a place where friends often meet up for drinks and a chat after work. The Chinese gay KTV venues are roughly similar, only they are for men to relax, drink and enjoy the company of many Chinese boys who will be totally naked.

Organisation of the gay KTV establishments

Before explaining what goes on, a word about the organisation of such gay KTV venues. In gay KTV Clubs, Zhang explains, there are the managers, foremen and Xiaodis.
‘Xiaodi’ means ‘little brother’ in Chinese. Usually customers are senior to those who provide erotic services; the social appellation for them in Chinese culture is ‘Dage’, which means ‘big brother’. ‘Xiaodi’ and ‘Dage’ not only show the age gap between the serving and the served, but also the hierarchy in a way that ‘Xiaodi’ immediately makes customers feel superior and assures the obedience, and the friendly tone of ‘Dage’ narrows the distance between two sides. Another reason they become the appellations to the two sides in gay KTV is because they desexualize what they do. Other appellations, such as ‘money boy’, which directly show the money-exchanged sexual relationship between them, are hard to be accepted by either actor in gay KTV; ‘Xiaodi’ and ‘Dage’, in contrast, are neutral and have no implications of sexuality.
The name mamasan is not used. Instead they are called ‘foremen’. One foreman explains that there are at least three or four gay KTVs in Shanghai. None is in the central area but all are easily reached by public transport. Equally all are in inconspicuous buildings. The owners realise they are treading a fine line with the authorities. In the Q&A excerpts that follow, the initials HL stand for the author Zhang Hua-lin. MZ is a 33-year old man, a frequent gay KTV customer who assisted Zhang with the interviews. The interviewees are also identified only by their initials.
HL: “As far as you know, how is the relationship between KTV and the police?”
MZ: “Just bribery, so that they will not go and find trouble for KTVs; also if there is inspection, the police would let KTVs know in advance, so that they can cover.”
HL: “Will it ensure the safety of KTVs if they have this relationship with the police? Under what circumstance they will still get inspected?”
MZ: “Then it might because you were not able to reach the higher level of the police, or the competitors give more money to the police. But even if one gets shut down, they can still open at another place with a new name and the same boss easily.”
This foreman denies that the offerings in the gay KTVs is basically illegal, but adds the owners have to be careful not to push the boundaries of acceptance too far.
MZ: “What is the background of the boss of a gay KTV, and how would he have a place like this?”
Foreman NF (42-year old with 5-years experience in the gay KTV business): “Bosses of the earliest gay KTVs are those who own businesses like gay bar, sauna or massage parlours. They earned some money from this, and know some money boys, so opened a place like this to broaden their business. Later some bosses outside the industry wanted to do some investment, so they just put money for it and don’t get involved in the running of the business.”
Returning to the issue of the police and the possibility of raids, Zhang probes further.

Foreman NF: “Let’s say we are now inspected by the police; we have to know how to deal with it. For example, Xiaodis can be naked, and we can say people are having fun; it does not matter since people in the room are all men, that does not count as a crime of obscenity. And we try to prevent anal sex in the room, otherwise it is a crime of group licentiousness. Beside, as a foreman, I do not get involve with customers’ taking Xiaodi out; it only happens on their voluntary willingness. I do not get commissions from this, so it is not a crime of organizational prostitution.”

There used to be a commonly held feeling outside China that being gay in China is totally unacceptable and often punishable by the authorities. This was only partially true. Despite many examples of homosexuality throughout Chinese history, even reaching up as high as some of the Emperors, age-old culture in China has dictated that sons marry, have children and in the absence of any form of social security look after their parents in their old age. As we all know, there must be millions of men who have married despite being aware they were either gay or bisexual.

The Chinese values of Confucianist moderation come into play in any discussion of being gay in China. As Zhang points out, this basically means
‘I’ understand ‘you’ and give ‘you’ respect, but ‘I’ do not like to get involved in ‘your’ business or be influenced by ‘you’. Different from most countries, being homosexual is not an inherent sin of human nature against religion or society; it is more of a moral problem in China. This leads to an understanding attitude towards homosexuality on the surface of Chinese society but an avoiding and abandoning attitude deep inside. Nevertheless, these moderate but inconsistent attitudes crack some social space for homosexuals in China to survive and produce their own leisure spaces.
Geographical Spread in China

The KTV venues inevitably keep a low profile. Zhang then asks how widespread the gay KTV business is in China? Are they confined to the main cities? How about the incomes of the Xiaodis? Is it a good business for them, even if they are not “offed” by a customer?
Foreman NF: “There are gay KTVs in cities such as Beijing, Shenzhen, Chengdu, Hefei, etc. . . . Shenzhen is fine, but it attracts more customers from Hong Kong, who are difficult to deal with. Chengdu is quite a gay city, but due to the less developed economy, the business there is not so good. Hefei gets this kind of place because most Xiaodis in Shanghai are from Anhui, so it is easier for recruitment. But the level of consumption there is lower than here [Shanghai].
MZ: “How about customers here? Why did you say [earlier] that here [a customer] earns more than with female customers?
Foreman NF: “Those who are able to consume here are not poor for sure, They are usually in their 30s at least with stable incomes. You know it is not cheap to consume here, with hundreds of Yuan [US$1 = approx. 7 Yuan] one night at least. But they know the price here, and know they have the capacity to consume . . . Also most of them have a higher education, so they are better behaved in KTV. Not like female customers in their KTVs, they are really horny customers and can play hard. Here, if Xiaodis finished their basic routines and had fun with customers, they were willing to pay more tips. Also male customers consume more wine than female ones; with commissions from wine, Xiaodis would earn at least three to four hundred per night. So, as you can see, they earn a lot and here is easier than where there are female customers.”
So with commissions on drinks, the Xiaodis in 2005/6 could earn between US$42 and $57 per night. That is before customers’ tips and before three years of inflation. Although no estimate is given in the thesis, my gut feel is that tips will be at least the same amount. So, most Xiaodis could probably clear over $100 per night even without an “off”. For Shanghai that is not a big amount. For money boys mostly from the countryside and with little education, it is very nice indeed!

Customer Age Range

In the thesis, Zhang interviews seven customers who had visited gay KTVs over between 1 and 10 years. Their ages range from 32 to 60 with five in their 30s, one aged 50 and another aged 60. It is hard to know if the views expressed by these customers are true or not for some are clearly more reluctant than others. Here is one view.

Customer BS (33 year old PhD student): “I do not go to KTV for sex. If I want, I can find it online or go to a massage parlour. I go to KTV to have fun with friends and find company for myself. Just imagine, there is a group of naked boy standing in front of you and your friends, and people have games and performances together, that is exciting enough. I do not think it is necessary to have it further.”

Another is prepared to go further and admits he may want to have sex with one of the boys.
Customer ZZ (40 year old company employee): “If I want further activity, I can do it in a toilet cabin. You know it is kind of like a rule that when the customer goes to toilet, the boy accompanying him has to go with him as well. It does not only to make you feel well served or to help you if you are drunk, but also implies that further activities, such as oral sex or masturbation, can be taken there.”
This appears to suggest that oral sex does not take place in the open group rooms. On the basis of the internet videos and the comments from another Xiaodis, that is not true.

Feelings of the Xiaodis

Especially interesting are the comments from the Xiaodis themselves. Those interviewed were aged between 19 and 24 and had been working in gay KTVs for between six months and three years. Most are not gay. Yet there seems to be an open acceptance that dancing naked in front of other men, oral sex and becoming involved in sex games is just a job and nothing to be ashamed of. Anal sex is not permitted on the premises. If both customer and boy are happy with an arrangement, they can leave together. But there is no obligation. Some will probably want to return to girlfriends when work is over, and still plan to get married once they finish as Xiaodis.

Xiaodi GG (22 years old): “I do not think being naked is a huge thing. We are all men. It is like when you go to a bathhouse, where there are all the naked men . . . It might be difficult for the first time, and then you just get used to it.”
HL: “So what if I ask you if you are gay, what would be your answer?”
Xiaodi GG: “I do not think to define myself as homosexual or heterosexual matters now. Sex is now just some movements, and makes no difference for me with whom I have it. But I still will find a girl to get married and have children in the future.”

Even their attitude to the terms ‘straight’ and ‘gay’ seem ambivalent as shown in this conversation.

HL: “Do you think you are gay?”
Xiaodi FZ (23 years old): “You can define me as whatever you like; it does not matter for me. I can make both male and female customers happy here. I am really good at this.”
HL: “So do you have any bottom line of working here?”
Xiaodi FZ: “I can do anything.”
HL: “So don’t you find kissing and masturbation matter for you?”
Xiaodi FZ: “It is just a kiss, no big deal. You do not lose anything. Don’t you masturbate yourself? So what if someone is doing that for you or you do it for someone else, like you help with your buddies. Everyone does this here.”

So are any of the Xiaodis gay? Zhang found one and learned of his reluctance to be openly gay in front of his friends and KTV colleagues.
HL: “Do you think being gay makes you easier to adapt to the work here?”
Xiaodi JR (20 years old): “I have my self-esteem, so I could not accept everything at first. It was not easy for me to get naked, give an oral sex to the customer, and further services. I have to tell myself repeatedly that this is my job and only if I do it well that I can make more money, live the life I want to live, and support my family . . . I can also tell myself that I get my demand satisfied. Then I feel better about it, and indeed work better here.”
So there in a nutshell you have it! Not much different from some Thailand bars other than being quite a bit more raunchy. I expect you will be as surprised as I was. I would love to find one of these gay KTVs, but as I only speak a smidgeon of Mandarin and have no friends who would know of their location, I would be a non-starter. I also doubt if non-Chinese will be permitted entry.

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Re: Gay China

Post by Dimsumbear » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:11 pm

To respond to your last two points: (1) Chinese secret police are all over SE Asia, as in anywhere else. One of their achievements is the abduction of a Chinese bookseller (who is a naturalized Swedes by the way) via Thailand back to China by car. Apparently they don’t like the tabloid books he sells about the current president.

(2) It’s not your skin color but the money note color that grants you entry to one of those raunchy karaokes. The level of raunchiness depends on how much you pay, and anything goes if you pay the right price (presuming much higher than what we tip that girlie Isaan boy at Winner).

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Re: Gay China

Post by fountainhall » Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:39 pm

Dimsumbear wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 12:11 pm
To respond to your last two points: (1) Chinese secret police are all over SE Asia, as in anywhere else. One of their achievements is the abduction of a Chinese bookseller (who is a naturalized Swedes by the way) via Thailand back to China by car. Apparently they don’t like the tabloid books he sells about the current president.\
I disagree with your general comment. Yes, a bookseller was abducted from Thailand to China. I believe at least one other Chinese has been similarly abducted from this country in recent years.

But I do not agree that the Chinese government will deliberately station secret police all over Asia specifically to target and abduct a few individuals individuals. I am certain, however, they they will send in secret police as and when required.

Of course, like all Embassies, the Chinese Embassy here and elsewhere will have its fair share of spies. I expect some may be used when its government wishes to whisk an individual aware clandestinely. But that in my view is not the same as stationing secret police all over the world!

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Re: Gay China

Post by Dimsumbear » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:18 pm

Fountainhall, you are right and have just earned my offer of a personal guide or even tour to the those karaoke in China.

fountainhall
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Re: Gay China

Post by fountainhall » Thu Aug 15, 2019 1:22 pm

Dimsumbear, what a wonderful offer! Not even my Chinese friends will take me to one. I will happily take up your offer and look forward to the dates so that I can book flights. I in turn will treat you to the best dim sum you will ever taste. But you will have to visit Hong Kong with me as it is in Happy Valley.

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