Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Anything and everything about Thailand
User avatar
Gaybutton
Posts: 16111
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Thailand
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 691 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by Gaybutton » Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:25 am

windwalker wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:22 pm
Obviously we see things differently.
Again, why do you think they are not criminals?

fountainhall
Posts: 2584
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:45 am
Location: Bangkok
Has thanked: 222 times
Been thanked: 581 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by fountainhall » Sat Sep 14, 2019 8:58 am

Not sure what the procedure is in Thailand, but in Singapore they are more strict. There is not just a fine for overstaying, you get a large red chop on the front of your passport OVERSTAY - presumably to raise a red flag for other countries. This happened to an Australian colleague who had over stayed by one day!

User avatar
windwalker
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:59 am
Has thanked: 206 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by windwalker » Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:42 am

Gaybutton wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 12:25 am
windwalker wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:22 pm
Obviously we see things differently.
Again, why do you think they are not criminals?
This is what Dodger posted:

In 2016 Thailand announced its “Good Guys In – Bad Guys Out” campaign, which is when Deputy PM Prawit publically announced in The Nation Newspaper his intentions to focus this campaign on overstayers , as he believed that many of the overstayers were doing so because they were (are) involved in criminal activities. In the past, there have been many cases of foreigners committing serious crimes such as human trafficking, weapons trading and drug dealing whilst overstaying their visas.

I don't see "overstaying" listed as a serious crime. If you believe "overstaying" is a serious crime then we see things differently.

fountainhall
Posts: 2584
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:45 am
Location: Bangkok
Has thanked: 222 times
Been thanked: 581 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by fountainhall » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:19 am

windwalker wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 1:33 pm
I doubt that the Overstayers are doing it because of illicit/criminal behavior rather they just find it more convenient rather than follow the rules/regulations.
And that is not a crime against the laws of the country which has permitted them temporary access? It may not be a crime similar to murder or arson, but it is still a crime.

We know that short term overstayers are slapped with fines depending on the number of overstay days. There is a large list of the fines on display at Immigration at BKK. The list also gives the period during which the overstayer cannot return to Thailand for longer overstayers. If you know you are overstaying a visa for whatever reason - even if you just cannot be bothered going to get your old visa renewed, you know you are deliberately in violation of the law. A day or so is perhaps understandable. Months or even years is a criminal activity and in my view the overstayer should have no right to return at any time.

User avatar
Gaybutton
Posts: 16111
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Thailand
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 691 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by Gaybutton » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:35 am

windwalker wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 10:42 am
If you believe "overstaying" is a serious crime then we see things differently.
It doesn't matter what I believe. It doesn't matter what you believe either. What matters is what immigration, police, and Thai courts believe. Someone who overstays for even one day will at minimum be fined.

Someone who overstays for long periods of time will be imprisoned, heavily fined, deported, and banned from returning to Thailand for years, sometimes permanently.

"That's an awfully harsh penalty for just a little infraction of the rules."
- Wallace Beery (Long John Silver), 'Treasure Island'

Dodger
Posts: 1133
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:58 am
Has thanked: 10 times
Been thanked: 262 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by Dodger » Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:20 am

christianpfc wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 5:27 pm
Overstaying and working without work permit. Who is harmed? Crime without victim!

With TM30, proof of income, and the like, once in a while you catch a criminal, at the cost of hassling many good guys, but without the need to do dirty and dangerous police work.
Overstaying may, or may not, hurt Thailand's economy based many factors that would have to be considered.

In the U.S. there are and estimated 11 million undocumented immigrants, and, contrary to what Donald Trump is trying to sell people, the vast majority have actually become vital to the U.S. economy and several key industries. While undocumented immigrants make up 5 percent of the overall workforce, they comprise more than half of the nation’s farmworkers and 15 percent of construction laborers. With the number of workers needed in those jobs continuing to rise, the need for undocumented workers in the U.S. will only grow. The rise in border enforcement and immigration raids “has meant fresh produce has gone unpicked and left to rot in fields.

If you consider the percentage of overstayers who stay in a country for the purpose of providing labor, this can actually be good for the economy. So, to your point, it would not appear as if overstayers who are in Thailand to perform labor tasks are not hurting the economy at all. If some jobs are displaced as a result of an increase in the labor force, that will almost always be offset by the resulting lower cost of products on the marketplace having a positive effect on the GNP.

I really don't believe anyone has accurate data showing how many overstayers are currently in Thailand, or what the nature of their overstay involves. meaning, what percentage of overstayers are actually criminals, or individuals having criminal intent. The Thai immigration police seem to think this number is high.

Regarding your comments about the TM30, I couldn't agree more.

User avatar
windwalker
Posts: 1380
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 7:59 am
Has thanked: 206 times
Been thanked: 68 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by windwalker » Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm

fountainhall wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:19 am

And that is not a crime against the laws of the country which has permitted them temporary access? It may not be a crime similar to murder or arson, but it is still a crime.
Not wearing a helmet on a motorbike is a crime; driving without a license is a crime; engaging in prostitution is a crime; not filing a TM 30 is a crime: not reporting every 90 days is a crime; when does it end? Do we boot out all these "criminals" ?

User avatar
Gaybutton
Posts: 16111
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Thailand
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 691 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by Gaybutton » Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:00 pm

windwalker wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:39 pm
Do we boot out all these "criminals" ?
No. They get fined. You listed misdemeanors. Intentionally overstaying a visa, that's a felony. I'll repeat - Thailand does not imprison, heavily fine, deport, and ban people from returning for petty misdemeanors. They do that for felonies. Why isn't that getting through to you?

User avatar
christianpfc
Posts: 1452
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 9:26 pm
Location: Bangkok Sathorn
Has thanked: 275 times
Been thanked: 21 times
Contact:

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by christianpfc » Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:54 pm

By my standards, overstaying is like walking over a red traffic light when there are no cars. A crime without victim. The difference is that if nobody sees you walking over the traffic light, there is no proof; whereas for overstaying there is proof.

I disagree with the title "Overstayers - The Real Enemy" I would rather say that the law is wrong and should be changed. (Just think of countries where homosexuality is illegal, the overstay is just a lesser form of human rights violation.)

User avatar
Gaybutton
Posts: 16111
Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:21 am
Location: Thailand
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 691 times

Re: Overstayers - The Real Enemy

Post by Gaybutton » Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:31 pm

christianpfc wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:54 pm
A crime without victim.
I don't understand your position. Countries have a right to issue or deny visas to foreigners and set the standards. What do you expect Thailand, or any country, to do - let foreigners just walk in and stay as long as they like? Visas are permission to be in a country where you are not a citizen. The country has a perfect right to limit how long foreigners can stay without permission to extend their stay.

You say the law is wrong and should be changed. Until the law does get changed, you're obligated to comply with the existing rules. By virtue of requesting and being granted a visa, that is what you are agreeing to do. Those who cannot or will not comply, shouldn't be here in the first place.

People who intentionally overstay their visa are committing a crime and in my opinion, a serious crime. You say the crime has no victim. I think I and everybody else who obeys and complies with Thai immigration laws truly are victims of people who don't. That's why all these rules and regulations are imposed. If Thailand could be assured that all foreigners who come here will obey the laws, then there would be no need for many of these regulations and many probably would never have existed. Unfortunately, that is unrealistic.

If your visa expires, then you're supposed to either obtain an extension if they will grant it or you're supposed to leave. I see no excuse for people who don't comply. What justifies people intentionally overstaying their visas? I can't think of anything that does justify it.

Post Reply