TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

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Gaybutton
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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:54 am
The fact that Retiree's don't like the TM28 requirement presents no sizable financial risk.
I would think immigration officers also don't like it. Mountains of useless paperwork they'll have to deal with if this is enforced - and they already deal with mountains of useless paperwork.

I can't help but wonder who among the powers-that-be thinks this is all a great, worthwhile idea.

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Dodger »

Gaybutton wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 8:55 pm
Dodger wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:54 am
The fact that Retiree's don't like the TM28 requirement presents no sizable financial risk.
I would think immigration officers also don't like it. Mountains of useless paperwork they'll have to deal with if this is enforced - and they already deal with mountains of useless paperwork.

I can't help but wonder who among the powers-that-be thinks this is all a great, worthwhile idea.
There may, or may not be, anyone on the Immigration Commission who thinks the TM28 provision is a good idea, but it’s becoming clear that at least someone on the Commission wants to start enforcing TM30 rigorously, which of course only effects hotels and guesthouses.

The immigration Commission consists of the Under Secretary of the Minister of Interior as Chairman and the following members:

• Under Secretary of Ministry of Foreign Affairs
• Director general, Police Department
• Director General, labor Department
• Director General, public Prosecution Department
• Secretary General, Board of Investment Committee
• Secretary General, National Security Council
• Director, Tourist Organization of Thailand
• Commander of Immigration Division as member and secretary

One of the functions of the Commission is to give advice and suggestions to the Minister on establishing standard operating procedures for local official and for other officials, regarding national security, as well as issuance of Ministerial Regulations under the Immigration Act. Understandably, each Commission Member also has their own personal agenda’s which is where things can get convoluted (to put it mildly).

It’s obvious to those residing in Thailand the the Commission allows each individual Immigration Division to have a certain amount of autonomy (flexibility) when it comes to interpreting and enforcing certain immigration policies. That being said, we can expect that the requirements for completing the TM28 Form will vary from division to division, and office to office, although, the fact remains, that no Immigration Division (or office) has the resources or capabilities to monitor and enforce the use of this TM28 Form, nor are the estimated 2.5 million foreign residents in Thailand going to be filling them out every time they take a trip outside their province. Regardless if they revise the law to eliminate TM28 or not, this is the reality of the situation.

There have been reports of hotels starting to get fined for not doing the TM30 reporting of their foreign guests, although, absolutely no indication that anyone, in any Immigration Division (or office), is being bothered with the TM28, which of course, is not surprising in the least. As far as retirees residing in Thailand on Extensions of Stay are concerned, the focus of the local Immigration Offices appears to be solely on the 90 day reporting. As you know, several retirees who have visited Jomtien Immigration to renew their Extensions of Stay recently (including myself) have not even heard TM28 being mentioned by immigration staff.

Unfortunately, the way things work in Immigration, relying on what you’re told by one of the immigration staff (clerks) as it relates to these types of things, is almost meaningless, because they are trained to simply follow procedure. Nothing more, and nothing less. If someone were to walk into Jomtien immigration today and ask one of the clerks if they needed to complete a TM28 every time they left their province for +24 hours, the answer they would receive would undoubtedly be “”Yes you do”. My suggestion would be to either ask to speak with the Superintendent of Immigration and ask him this question, or simply wait and see if they start issuing fines to farang for not completing TM28’s. It’s a shame we (retirees) have to operate this way, but this is Thailand!

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:24 am
It’s a shame we (retirees) have to operate this way, but this is Thailand!
It seems to me the majority of problems retirees in Thailand have to deal with are immigration problems. This is just one of them.

Their reasoning behind the TM30 and TM28 is to help prevent crime. I wonder if they can provide any evidence that these forms have ever actually prevented even one crime.

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by 2lz2p »

Dodger wrote:
Tue Sep 17, 2019 10:27 am
For clarification purposes, I think you intended to say..."no need to file a new TM28 if you are returning to the same address" not TM30.
No, I did not intend to say TM.28. I did mean to say TM.30.

Previously, Jomtien Immigration did not require it be filed by owner/possessor if it related to a retiree who had traveled either outside of or inside of Thailand. BUT, within the last 3 weeks this has changed, but only for travel outside of Thailand; in which case a TM.30 must be filed again (they are giving 3 days instead of 24 hours per reports I have rec'd). However, they continue to not require a new TM.30 if the travel is inside of Thailand and the person returns to their previously reported address - I do mean "TM.30".

As to the TM.28 - like the TM.30, it is required by the Immigration Act (law), but Jomtien Immigration has only been requiring the filing of the TM.30 and most likely will not even accept the TM.28 form -- this is based on several reports I rec'd back when Pattaya Immigration first started enforcing the TM.30 requirements.

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Gaybutton »

2lz2p wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:53 am
Jomtien Immigration has only been requiring the filing of the TM.30 and most likely will not even accept the TM.28 form
We need to find out for sure, but how? I think by now most of us know we cannot rely on the word of what one immigration officer tells us when another officer might tell you something entirely different, even in the same office.

The only thing I can think of is to wait and see if people who are supposed to file the TM28, but don't, are fined or otherwise penalized. Either that, or just comply and go to immigration to file it. Then we'll see if they accept it or not.

I can't even imagine why they would even want to have to deal with it. I also don't understand why retirement visa holders are not on the exempt list. How is it helping anything to make us file these documents which are absurd in the first place?

The entire brouhaha is now on my "I Don't Get It" list.

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Dodger »

2lz2p wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:53 am
No, I did not intend to say TM.28. I did mean to say TM.30.

It appears that some people are still a bit confused about the purpose of these two forms.

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:16 pm
It appears that some people are still a bit confused about the purpose of these two forms.
I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of either one of them.

By the way, if anyone wants to view and/or download the TM28, TM30, or any other immigration forms, see: http://bangkok.immigration.go.th/en/bas ... e=download

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Dodger »

Gaybutton wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:25 pm
Dodger wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 12:16 pm
It appears that some people are still a bit confused about the purpose of these two forms.
I'm still trying to figure out the purpose of either one of them.
God only knows!

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Gaybutton »

Dodger wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 2:31 pm
God only knows!
I'm not so sure even He knows . . .

Not that I expect it to do much good - at least not any time soon, but the following appears in today's Bangkok Post:
___________________________________________________________________________

Europe trade body wants end to TM30

18 Sep 2019

The European Association for Business and Commerce (EABC) has proposed an immediate end to the TM30 24-hour reporting and TM28 change-of-permanent-address immigration forms.

The EABC represents the interests of the European business community in the kingdom.

It submitted the request to Thai officials including Kobsak Pootrakool, deputy secretary-general for political affairs to the prime minister; Gen Anupong Paojinda, the Minister of the Interior; and Pol Lt Gen Sompong Chingduang, the Immigration Bureau chief.

Jan Eriksson, President of the EABC, said, "The immigration form TM30, or 24-hour reporting, requires property owners and lessors to report the movements of foreigners using such properties.

Both Thai citizens and foreigners have found the situation difficult and unnecessary, and the situation has caused some unfortunately negative views about Thailand, both as an investment and a 'doing-business' location, and as a tourism destination. This is surely not good."

A completed TM30 form is now a prerequisite to using normal visa services. "We commend the government for taking positive steps to make it easier to do business. Currently, we feel that the TM30 is undoing those good achievements," he said.

"It is hard to see how security which relies on self-disclosure can be a useful solution," he added.

Story, photo, graphic: https://www.bangkokpost.com/business/17 ... nd-to-tm30

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Re: TM28 problem solved? NOT for O or O-A retirement visa holders

Post by Dodger »

Bangkok Post wrote:
Wed Sep 18, 2019 3:33 pm
Europe trade body wants end to TM30
The more pressure the better.

Immigration certainly isn't listening to the voices of retirees.

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